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Post subject: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:15 am
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I've had a stock 1966 Precision for ages. But people were telling me I shouldn't take it out of the house ;-) so I started playing an AVRI reissue. I swapped the pickups with Seymour Duncan Antiquity II because I didn't like the stock raised pole pieces, and added a set of La Bella flatwounds. Been happily playing the AVRI since then.

Recently I pulled the '66 out, and I could not believe the sound. Punch, bite, depth....I don't know how to describe it, but it was like I was in a dream.

My question is: should I try swapping strings or pickups on the AVRI to get it to sound more like the '66, or just forget it because that "mojo" can never be duplicated?

Strings on the '66 are probably D'Addario Chromes ECB82 flatwounds, and at least 20 years old. The AVRI has the Jamerson 760M set from LaBella and probably 3 years old. So the strings shouldn't be making that much of a difference, but I guess it's not expensive to try strings first.

I'm thinking Fender Pure Vintage pickups might be the step after that.

Or should I just forget it and not try to recreate what can't be recreated?

Thanks....Lyle


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:58 am
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I would try going back to the stock pickups that came with the AVRI bass and see how that sounds

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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:05 am
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Put the Stock pickup back in the AVRI & leave the current flats that are on it to see if you notice a difference,...... One interesting thing you mention in your post regarding the Flatwounds on your 66 P bass being 20yrs old,... rumor has it that James Jamerson rarely if never changed the Labella flatwound strings on his P bass .... so there ya go Food for thought. :)


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:14 am
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:idea: :arrow: You answered your own question. "... just forget it and not try to recreate what can't be recreated?" No matter how standardized the manufacturing process and how high the quality every instrument is an individual.

I also believe your intense love affair with your 1966 Fender Precision colors what your ears hear and brain perceives. 8)

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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:11 pm
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I would take a hard look at what the two basses have in common and what the differences are.
Obviously the 66 is nearly 50 years old and has 20 year old strings. It also has an alder body and a rosewood neck.

The AVRI model you have must have a maple neck since it had raised A string pole pieces like the 57 AVRI has and it may have an ASH body, so those are some big differences between these two basses.

I don't think that the AVRI will ever sound like the 66 to your ears, so I would just enjoy the differences and play the 66 on special occasions.

BTW- Jamerson never changed his Labella strings and neither did Joe Osborn on his 1959 Jazz bass. Those old Labella bass strings were magic!

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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:22 pm
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Never changing your strings is silly and way over rated. C'mon. Those dudes played way back years and years ago. I wouldn't change the 66. If it has the sound it has the sound. I would put some new strings on it and then enjoy the heck out of it. But that's just me. I screw up all the time and change my strings.

I contacted Mr KnowItall and told him about this and he said-----

I do not think if you put the 66 pick ups in a different newer bass it will make the bass you put them in sound as good as the 66 does if the 66 has "that" sound. In fact I know it won't.
How can you doubt Mr. Know Itall?


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:14 am
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LyleR wrote:
I've had a stock 1966 Precision for ages. But people were telling me I shouldn't take it out of the house ;-) so I started playing an AVRI reissue. I swapped the pickups with Seymour Duncan Antiquity II because I didn't like the stock raised pole pieces, and added a set of La Bella flatwounds. Been happily playing the AVRI since then.

Recently I pulled the '66 out, and I could not believe the sound. Punch, bite, depth....I don't know how to describe it, but it was like I was in a dream.

My question is: should I try swapping strings or pickups on the AVRI to get it to sound more like the '66, or just forget it because that "mojo" can never be duplicated?

Strings on the '66 are probably D'Addario Chromes ECB82 flatwounds, and at least 20 years old. The AVRI has the Jamerson 760M set from LaBella and probably 3 years old. So the strings shouldn't be making that much of a difference, but I guess it's not expensive to try strings first.

I'm thinking Fender Pure Vintage pickups might be the step after that.

Or should I just forget it and not try to recreate what can't be recreated?

Thanks....Lyle


Hi LyleR, Let's check the TONE CAPACITORS. What tone cap is in the real 66? What tone cap is in the AVRI? If it is a 62 AVRI it is 0.10uF which is the same as a real 62. I bet you'll find a 0.05 ceramic disc in the real 66. That would make a huge difference if indeed the case. You can get one just like in the 66 from multiple source. Buy one of the real vintage ones in the same value and same brand if possible that you find in the 66. Fender used several brands including Sprague, ones marked Circle-D (with a "D" inside a circle looking a lot like today's Dunlop logo but made by Dielectric) and Fender used other brands from time to time depending on who bid cheaper when they needed more inventory. Buy it from someone who has checked it on a meter to insure it is close to whatever stated value you find in the real 66. The value tolerance on vintage ceramics is huge, 20 to sometimes 30%. You can't really check the one in the 66 for it's true value without de-soldering one of it's leads, but do NOT do that! Keep those original solder joints intact.

Some people say tone cap types and brands make no tonal difference, but even those people will agree that the value certainly does. I'm of the opinion that the type of cap DOES make a difference. That is ONLY my opinion and it is a free country so I'm entitled to it and that subject has already been beaten to death. Nobody in their right mind could sensibly argue that the value makes no difference though. In fact I'd check and compare the tone caps FIRST before doing ANYTHING else.

Anitquity was probably the wrong pickup. They are under-wound compared to a 66 pickup. The SPB1 would have been closer but probably over-wound a tad too much. The Antiquity gets you to 1957-1963 tone-land where the tone is brighter and more Jazz-like because they are wound to the early P-Bass windings which sounded like that because the bass amps of the day were pretty lame. In 1965 or so CBS started winding the pickups on the P-Bass with more turns leading to that "PUNCH, BITE, DEPTH" thing you mention and so far as I know Fender does not have a Pure Vintage P-Bass pickup winding close to that since the Pure Vintage Series are mostly Pre-CBS and first year CBS winds which will sound pretty much just like the Antiquity. You can buy a 66 pickup on eBay for a small fortune or have Lindy Fralin or Curtis Novak make you one wound to Fender 66 specs which is probably the best solution on the AVRI to make it sound more 66ish. In succeeding years CBS gradually wound them more and more making them louder and louder at the equally gradual sacrifice of upper mids. That is why the 62 AVRI P-Bass has a 0.10uF cap and your real 66 possibly has a 0.05uF cap.

Also the strings may make a bigger difference than you think. Both sets exist because they are different. Buy a new set of Chromes for the real 66 and take the existing set off of the real 66 and put them on the AVRI. Or just swap your existing string sets. Do that one string at a time by the way.

You can try these things in any order you wish, but I'd start with the tone cap comparison, the string swap and lastly worry about a 66ish wound pickup from a custom winding shop. See how it goes at each step. If you want to try a stock mass production pickup first you might want to try the Duncan SPB2 for a punchier attack, but it won't have the upper mids that still survived in the slightly over-wound 66 Precision pickup. Fender's current Custom Shop pickup might also be close, can't say because I've not put it on a meter but I'm sure none of the Pure Vintage ones have that depth you talk about as they are all full range brighter pickups.


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:20 pm
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Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies.

I am tending to agree that 20-year-old Chromes vs relatively recent LaBellas is probably a large part of the difference. I like the idea of carefully saving the old strings, putting two sets of the same new strings (LaBellas for quicker break-in) on both of them, and then doing an A/B test as the easiest method to narrow things down.

BrotherDave, I've read a lot of your posts about capacitors, and appreciate all that you give to the forum.

I don't really need both instruments to sound the same, but it was just such a shocking difference that it got the juices flowing. ;-)

....Lyle


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:41 am
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Good thread people.

I have always wondered about that "magic" many of the older Fenders (pre-cbs/early CBS) have. Magnets weakening, wiring aging etc. I am talking sound here, not feel.

I believe the wood dries and becomes resonant but really can't confirm that resonance transfers to the pickups.


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:02 am
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LyleR wrote:
I don't really need both instruments to sound the same, but it was just such a shocking difference that it got the juices flowing. ;-)

....Lyle


So sorry, I must have misunderstood the meaning of "duplicating" in the title of the thread.


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:11 pm
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I agree about starting with the cap. I am playing with a 63P player right now that I put a .022 cap in just to try it. Huge difference from the .047, and actually enjoying it just because it is different....but it will be swapped out before long as the bottom isn't where I like it (but the mids are awesome). There was an extremely good thread on caps recently that got me interested, and since this bass is a player, I am going to fool around with them. I am recording them just to make sure the differences aren't all in my mind.

The 1954 LaBella's that Jamerson used are my very favorite string, but the consensus is the stress on the neck is dangerous and may cause damage. I think it was Brother Dave that told it so severely bowed JJ's neck that only his finger strength from playing an old German double allowed him to play it at all. I still play one set on, of all things, a Mustang.

I think I have tested just about every flatwound out there over the past 3-4 years. I have a lot of basses with Chromes on them, but I am still (always) trying an retrying strings, because they do make a difference - and it matters what bass they are on, too.

Finally, as far as the AV57P. I would put the original pups back in it. That bass is my go to bass for gigging on the P side, and only sits home if I take my 74 fretless.

Okay, I guess that wasn't the last thing. As far as taking your vintage instrument out, know your venue and go for it. I have a handful of basses that have some very nice value, and I let them sit at home for years..finally, maybe two years ago, I figured out what a waste it was. I take all my basses to practices or session work. Most of my gigs are in friendly environments, not bars, etc, so I take all but a couple to gigs, too. Do you want to take your classic to Bubba's Redneck Roundup, no, but if you have a gig at a banquet or church or something similar, why let it sit at home. Enjoy it, let others enjoy hearing it, but keep an eye on it.

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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:20 pm
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jazzbassjo wrote:
Good thread people.

I have always wondered about that "magic" many of the older Fenders (pre-cbs/early CBS) have. Magnets weakening, wiring aging etc. I am talking sound here, not feel.

I believe the wood dries and becomes resonant but really can't confirm that resonance transfers to the pickups.


After they started using Fullerplast sealer in 64 and switched to mostly acrylic paints about a year later you can forget about the wood aging. Actually prior to 64 some color coats were already acrylic, not nitro! That Fullerplast plastic sealer is like a time capsule and nothing gets in or out. Same is true of today's poly paints and poly sealer. So paying extra for a nitro topcoat shoot is of no benefit if the sealer is poly because the poly sealer is between the nitro and the wood. Pre 1964 yes the wood continues to cure some right through the nitro primer & nitro color coat if the color coat is nitro, but it wasn't always. Post 1963 no it doesn't.

Why did Fender switch paints? Auto makers switched and Fender mainly used automotive paint mixes giving the auto paint colors different names on the Fender color charts. One exception is the Candy Apple Red that Leo Fender innovated which quickly reverse migrated to become a popular custom car color treatment! The only other exception I know of is Fender's Blonde treatment which like Candy Apple Red is a multi-step process but so far as I know was never a car color.

Here is how vintage Fender colors translate to car colors and which ones are actually nitro:

(Duco=nitro while Lucite=acrylic)

Lake Placid Blue is Lucite 2876-L Fender used 60-'73 from 1958 Cadillacs
Daphne Blue is Duco 2804 Fender used '60-'65 from 1958 Cadillacs
Shoreline Gold is Lucite 2935-L Fender used '60-'65 from 1959-60 Pontiacs
Olympic White is Lucite 2818-L Fender used '60-'80 from 1958-62 Cadillacs
Burgundy Mist Metallic is Lucite 2936-L Fender used '60-'65 from 1959 Oldsmobiles
Inca Silver is Lucite 2436-L Fender used '60-'65 from the 1957-59 Chevrolet Corvettes
Fiesta Red is Duco 2219-H Fender used '60-'69 from the 1956 Ford Thunderbird
Dakota Red is Duco 2590-H Fender used '60-'69 from 1958 Cadillacs
Blue Ice Metallic is Lucite 4692L Fender used '65-'69 from 1965-66 Fords
Firemist Silver Metallic is Lucite 4576L Fender used '65-'71 from 1964 Cadillacs
Firemist Gold Metallic is Lucite 4579L Fender used '65-'71 from 1964-65 Cadillacs
Charcoal Frost is Lucite 4618L Fender used '65-'69 from 1965-66 Lincolns
Ocean Turquoise is Lucite/4607L Fender used '65-'71 is from a 1965 Mercury
Teal Green is Lucite 4297L Fender used '65-'69 is from 1965-'68 Lincolns
Black is Duco 1711 Fender used '60-'84 and is a common black from all yrs all makes
Sonic Blue is Duco 2295 Fender used '60-'72 is from 1956 Cadillacs
Shell Pink is Duco 2371 Fender used '60-'63 from the 1956 Desoto
Foam Green is Duco 2253 Fender used '60-'69 from 1956 Buicks
Surf Green is Duco 2461 Fender used '60-'65 is from 1957 Chevrolets
Sherwood Green is Duco 2526-H Fender used '60-'65 is from a 1957 Mercury


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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:32 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
jazzbassjo wrote:
Good thread people.

I have always wondered about that "magic" many of the older Fenders (pre-cbs/early CBS) have. Magnets weakening, wiring aging etc. I am talking sound here, not feel.

I believe the wood dries and becomes resonant but really can't confirm that resonance transfers to the pickups.


After they started using Fullerplast sealer in 64 and switched to mostly acrylic paints about a year later you can forget about the wood aging. Actually prior to 64 some color coats were already acrylic, not nitro! That Fullerplast plastic sealer is like a time capsule and nothing gets in or out. Same is true of today's poly paints and poly sealer. So paying extra for a nitro topcoat shoot is of no benefit if the sealer is poly because the poly sealer is between the nitro and the wood. Pre 1964 yes the wood continues to cure some right through the nitro primer & nitro color coat if the color coat is nitro, but it wasn't always. Post 1963 no it doesn't.

Why did Fender switch paints? Auto makers switched and Fender mainly used automotive paint mixes giving the auto paint colors different names on the Fender color charts. One exception is the Candy Apple Red that Leo Fender innovated which quickly reverse migrated to become a popular custom car color treatment! The only other exception I know of is Fender's Blonde treatment which like Candy Apple Red is a multi-step process but so far as I know was never a car color.

Here is how vintage Fender colors translate to car colors and which ones are actually nitro:

(Duco=nitro while Lucite=acrylic)

Lake Placid Blue is Lucite 2876-L Fender used 60-'73 from 1958 Cadillacs
Daphne Blue is Duco 2804 Fender used '60-'65 from 1958 Cadillacs
Shoreline Gold is Lucite 2935-L Fender used '60-'65 from 1959-60 Pontiacs
Olympic White is Lucite 2818-L Fender used '60-'80 from 1958-62 Cadillacs
Burgundy Mist Metallic is Lucite 2936-L Fender used '60-'65 from 1959 Oldsmobiles
Inca Silver is Lucite 2436-L Fender used '60-'65 from the 1957-59 Chevrolet Corvettes
Fiesta Red is Duco 2219-H Fender used '60-'69 from the 1956 Ford Thunderbird
Dakota Red is Duco 2590-H Fender used '60-'69 from 1958 Cadillacs
Blue Ice Metallic is Lucite 4692L Fender used '65-'69 from 1965-66 Fords
Firemist Silver Metallic is Lucite 4576L Fender used '65-'71 from 1964 Cadillacs
Firemist Gold Metallic is Lucite 4579L Fender used '65-'71 from 1964-65 Cadillacs
Charcoal Frost is Lucite 4618L Fender used '65-'69 from 1965-66 Lincolns
Ocean Turquoise is Lucite/4607L Fender used '65-'71 is from a 1965 Mercury
Teal Green is Lucite 4297L Fender used '65-'69 is from 1965-'68 Lincolns
Black is Duco 1711 Fender used '60-'84 and is a common black from all yrs all makes
Sonic Blue is Duco 2295 Fender used '60-'72 is from 1956 Cadillacs
Shell Pink is Duco 2371 Fender used '60-'63 from the 1956 Desoto
Foam Green is Duco 2253 Fender used '60-'69 from 1956 Buicks
Surf Green is Duco 2461 Fender used '60-'65 is from 1957 Chevrolets
Sherwood Green is Duco 2526-H Fender used '60-'65 is from a 1957 Mercury

Thanks for the info BD(amazing!). BTW since the forum changed to email addresses, the email account I was using does not exist and I had to re-sign up with a different name (previously jazzbassjo). Anyway....

I frequently get to play vintage basses (and sorry all I just don't consider mid 70s and up vintage. :shock: ) and am on a continuous journey to understand what makes vintage instruments sound and feel the way they do. Not all of them have "it" but many I have played do and I have not felt/heard "it" with modern instruments. The combination of worn in necks and those original pickups just does it for me. The late 50s, early 60s basses seem lighter gernerally also. When I have measured an actual vintage bass and compared to my American Standard, the vintage is actually thinner at the body and headstock. mFender Road Worn P is very similar in size to an actual late 50s P bass.
Looking over your list of paint colors, I find my favorites are the Duco. Coincidence?

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Post subject: Re: Duplicating the tone of my old Fender Precision
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:50 am
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flatwound wrote:

Thanks for the info BD(amazing!). BTW since the forum changed to email addresses, the email account I was using does not exist and I had to re-sign up with a different name (previously jazzbassjo). Anyway....

I frequently get to play vintage basses (and sorry all I just don't consider mid 70s and up vintage. :shock: ) and am on a continuous journey to understand what makes vintage instruments sound and feel the way they do. Not all of them have "it" but many I have played do and I have not felt/heard "it" with modern instruments. The combination of worn in necks and those original pickups just does it for me. The late 50s, early 60s basses seem lighter gernerally also. When I have measured an actual vintage bass and compared to my American Standard, the vintage is actually thinner at the body and headstock. mFender Road Worn P is very similar in size to an actual late 50s P bass.
Looking over your list of paint colors, I find my favorites are the Duco. Coincidence?


Yes the bodies were different pre-CBS because they were hand shaped after being rough cut by a jig router. So there were variances, not like the "machines" than CBS brought in which were early CNC devices that did everything but sanding and buffing before going to the finishing dept.

There are tonal variances in today's instruments also, partly due to wood but mostly due to other variable things. (I feel like I'm beating the capacitor horse to death but) there is a 10% tolerance on the ceramic tone caps used in the late 50's and early 60's and also being used today. So while it was marked 0.05uf it could have ranged from .04 to .06uf, and believe me a .02uf tone cap swing between two instruments makes quite a bit of difference in voicing with one sounding darker or perkier than another.

Additionally how the pickups are wound using hand scattering can make 2 pickups sound a wee bit different even with no capacitor in the picture. No two hand scattered pickups are IDENTICAL. The random pattern varies pickup to pickup.

The number of turns of Formvar wire were not EXACTLY the same on every pickup but in the ballpark which probably makes a tiny difference.

Oh, and there is that pesky tolerance factor in potentiometers also. So while labeled 250k it could be 225 to 275k. That matters too.

So all these variables can add up to the perfect storm of a bass or something less.

I really don't think aging wire has much to do with it though.


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