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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:02 pm
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Being that I am "oxfan", what I'm about to say may come as a shock to you. While John is, was and always will be my favorite bass guitarist, I have to say that James Jamerson overshadows him.

That list is ridiculous, I agree that many of the best were overlooked and/or ignored. Motown and Stax influenced more musician's than any other style. For those of you that know, I won't bother listing them all, you already know them.

Flea? Hah! I like some of the RHCP's stuff, it's entertaining and that's about it, haven't heard anything ali that memorable.

I'm waiting for the rebuttals that will come. We're talking personal preference, everybody is entitled to their opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:26 am
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oxfan wrote:
Being that I am "oxfan", what I'm about to say may come as a shock to you. While John is, was and always will be my favorite bass guitarist, I have to say that James Jamerson overshadows him.

That list is ridiculous, I agree that many of the best were overlooked and/or ignored. Motown and Stax influenced more musician's than any other style. For those of you that know, I won't bother listing them all, you already know them.

Flea? Hah! I like some of the RHCP's stuff, it's entertaining and that's about it, haven't heard anything ali that memorable.

I'm waiting for the rebuttals that will come. We're talking personal preference, everybody is entitled to their opinion.


I know it is hard to swallow for we relics but what direct influence Motown and Stax had on 60's and 70's people...well it isn't what it used to be.

Absolutely Affprod, Babbitt was underrated. After all he was "Standing In The Shadows Of Jamerson." I actually think that while Babbitt could mimic Jamerson that on his original lines was playing closer to Duck than Jamerson. If you listen to many of his tracks he has the same team player approach most of the time, which I think is positive attribute numero uno if you are going to be playing with a bunch of different people. Babbitt like Dunn could get a little more complex or even more introspective than usual as required. Scheff, Cogbill and Hood had the same ability to either blend in smooth as glass or aggressively drive the entire track as the situation required. Hardly anyone knows who Scheff, Cogbill, Hood and Babbitt are and yet they are on hundreds if not thousands of hit recordings playing with the biggest acts of all time over and over again.

It is also interesting to note that most of my personal major influences started on 3/4 or 4/4 acoustics before going to a Fender electric. I think that starting with an upright acoustic gave them a unique foundation they would not have had if they had just bought a P-Bass as their first bass. When they start out electric or come from a Spanish guitar background you get more of a Kaye than a traditional pop or R&B bassist. It's still good but there is a difference between a bassist and a Spanish guitarist playing bass.

I'm really not hearing anything today that challenges the electric bass awakening fostered by Jamerson, Ox, McCartney and Kaye 50 years ago. There's complexity and solid musicality in the work of each. This was the groundbreaking stuff taking the root-fifth of Bill Black to territory that I don't think even Leo envisioned. The work these people recorded turned out to be durable, frequently holding up better than any other component of the recordings they played on. Each influenced the mainstream genres of their day and continue to do so in sort of an indirect fashion. People they influenced directly then influenced a second generation who influenced the third who will influence the fourth and so on. So while an up and comer today might not even know who the architects of electric bass awakening even are, they are all absolutely influenced by the original electric innovators and they don't even realize it because it has become indirect.

As to Flea. He's no doubt a superstar of bass and my impression is that like Slash it is partly because of his personage and stage presence and partly his musical stylings. I always suspected Flea saw the void Jaco's passing left and was trying to fill it. While he is not Jaco it appears he is either from the same mold or forced himself into the mold, but I don't know which. I think in another 20 years Flea's work will be viewed with more perspective, much as Jaco's has been over the past decade. It is remarkable how many up and comers cite Flea as an influence now and how many people took up electric bass specifically because of him. He certainly has fans. While RHCP is not my bag, I have to hand it to Flea. Even if not with the relentless frequency of Jaco, Flea does manage on occasion to muster a courageous intensity that is very Jaco-esque. Like I said, not my bag, but I do think with time he's going to be judged more fairly.

I listen to all types of music, but of course I like some of it better than others. I think it is only natural that you have your favorites, but it is wisest to listen to a variety. I try to listen to at least 3 songs per day outside my box and to support live bands. Being one dimensional is never a good thing. If you don't go outside your box with regularity, the box shrinks inward upon you and I promise that you will smother.


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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:54 am
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Well said brotherdave. As I said, there were too many to list, but you mentioned them. The machines that Motown and Stax were demanded "team players", it just so happened that each of them had a brilliant bass guitarist that couldn't stay in the box. Unless someone was a bass player, they really couldn't appreciate Duck for the player he was. The one thing that impresses me more than any other player, is, Duck was ths the steadiest, most consistent and foundational there was. I'm having some trouble finding the words to fit, but i think you know what I mean.

Flea has become one of the most recognized bass players of this time, he is a personality, just like Slash and Gene Simmons. They're entertainers, their goal is to touch the masses and they've succeeded. good for them. In another 20 years, they'll be forgotten, but the debate will still be going on with James Jamerson, Duck Dunn, Paul McCartney and John Entwistle being talked about, as well as a few more.


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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:28 pm
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Putting Flea with Gene Simmons is a bit harsh! :lol: (I haven't been around here much lately but that one got me going)

But since both Carol Kaye and Gene Simmons have been mentioned, have you seen this video?



I don't know how much Flea was influenced by Jaco, never heard that connection before (though of course it is possible) - I would characterize him as taking the technique of funk and mashing it together with the energy of punk. Later on he mellowed out quite a bit and delved more deeply into the funk/R&B side of things - the Red Hots have a lot of albums and stylistically are all over the map. When I see him talked about as "one of the best bassists in history" I think that's a bit silly, but he is definitely one of the most influential. But then again, Gene Simmons was very influential too so you may have a point! But I think Flea will be remembered longer for his music. Whether or not you like his music, Flea has a sincerity in his playing that puts him above other players who often get written off because of their image.

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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:04 pm
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Clips like that are cool....I don't care who you are. (learned that from Larry TCG)

I hope she lives forever.

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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:21 pm
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Yeah, actually I was impressed by how respectful (human?!!) he was - he even grooves a bit after a while!

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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:41 pm
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I saw that clip. I was waiting for her to get the ruler out. I don't dislike Flea, but he's not the player that Dunn, Jamerson or Entwistle was. His advantage is, he's still alive and can get better.


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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:35 pm
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I'm pretty sure that Oxfan sent me that clip on my facebook and I shared it. Remarkable primarily because that is precisely how she works with a student. Any student. She gives direction and walks off so you can work it out yourself, then comes back to say you've almost got it, gives more guidance and leaves again immediately. She goes over and talks to her birds (she has a lot of birds) and you think she's not paying attention to you at all, but she is. Best instructor ever. "1 and 2 and down and up and up up up and down and up and up up up." I love me some Carol Kaye, and beat Gene Simmons by years!

To me, Flea sounds at times like he's channeling Jaco. I think he's good and has approached, flirted with, been in sight of and gotten close enough to wink at greatness. Almost....almost there. Not quite.

Back to the Duck which is the topic. i think his GREATEST attribute and what I took from him more than anything else was how he gave space to other instrumentation and vocals with a few exceptions where he literally drove the track. That should be the definition of a pocket bassist. Give everyone else some space. Duck's more up front on more of the Otis Redding stuff than anywhere, so lots of the Otis tracks are an exception.

But on what is arguably the greatest song ever recorded at Stax (released on the VOLT label) which also happens to be an Otis track, "TRY A LITTLE TENDERNESS", Duck is his more usual self supporting everyone else while they make the magic. That is maybe the most emotionally powerful recording I ever heard in my life. I was 12 years old when it made me hug my feather pillow tighter the first time I heard it as John R play it on WLAC Nashville, Tennessee with my GE transistor radio earphone stuck in my ear late at night when I should have been asleep because the next day was a school day. I listened to John R every night and ordered one of the Ernie's Record Mart R&B packages about once a month. I ordered this package, whatever the package number was, that night on the John R Show from Ernie's Record Mart. No internet back ten of course so it was Mail Order and I sent the $6.00 cash and got ten good R&B records about 3 weeks later, but I wore that one particular single out on my Philco record player.

GOING OFF TOPIC NOW! (Black Velvet is a good drink straight!)

Most overlooked decent steady pocket bassist of all time? How about John McVie? I've long admired him and his name never ever comes up!

Most overlooked DJ of all time, how about John R? Any other John R fans out there? I was a huge fan. It was not until after his 1986 death that I learned John R and I had both done the night show at WTMA Radio in Charleston, SC for a while. From WTMA he went to WLAC in Nashville while I went to Charlotte where I bounced around until I did a career best 14 year run on a 100KW FM then called Magic 96.1. Getting fired at WTMA in Charleston remains the biggest heartbreak of my radio career. I was fired there December 23rd, 1974 with two weeks severance after moving there the preceding September from Cocoa Beach where I had great success. Merry Christmas Dave! I choose to think I got fired because I said "HELL" on the air on purpose. However they said it was because of the economy and since I was the new hire I had to go. While the economy did suck then, I would have felt better if they had said I was fired for saying "HELL" on the air. Getting fired for that sort of thing can be a career builder. In 1974 apparently only preachers could say "HELL" on the radio.

A few years after getting fired at WTMA, I read Dan Rather's book, "The Camera Never Blinks" and in the book the word "HELL" came up again. Dan was working at a radio station in his hometown, Houston. They ran a 30 minute preacher broadcast in the evening. Dan had a girl he liked who worked at the Dairy Queen near the station. So during the 30 minute preacher broadcast, which was on a mechanical transcription (recorded disc) he'd drive like hell over to the Dairy Queen, chat up the girl and order a Brazier Burger and then drive like hell back to the studio before the broadcast was over. One night he's at the Dairy Queen chatting with the babe while his order comes out as usual and the phone at the Dairy Queen rings. It was his boss on the phone and he asks for Dan. They hand Dan the phone through the little window and his boss asks if Dan can hear the radio station right now, to which Dan replied that he could not. His boss said, "Get to where you can hear it, fix it and then you are fired!" What had happened is that the radio preacher had said, "If you do not repent, when you die you will go to hell!" And at just that point the transcription had STUCK on "Go to Hell...." (click) "Go to hell..." (click) "Go to hell..." (click) and repeated "Go to hell" over and over and over. This went on for about 20 minutes of the 30 minutes on the then major AM station where Dan Rather had his first radio gig. Getting fired there didn't hurt Dan's career much. So after reading that episode I let it go and moved on. Still every December 23rd I get a little twinge of regret for leaving Cocoa Beach.


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Post subject: Re: Donald "Duck" Dunn
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:56 am
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I don't know. Flea beats a lot of the same tricks into the ground and has been for YEARS. To the point where it's hard to tell lines from another because he is trying to play so much that he exhausts the options. (chordially speaking) For the most part he's a one trick pony and that trick is beating a dead horse. He isn't a good rock bassist by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't know how to function in a pocket. His band simply builds the pocket around his wanking. Which is a credit to his guitarists. Not his talent. As far as "channeling" Jaco. I wish he'd try and channel his tone. Because Flea's is horrendous.

I agree on Duck. However, I think it goes beyond being simply a pocket player, or giving the other instruments space. I think that's a by product of his true mastery. I think it was about trying to "hear" what the song needed to make it reach it's potential. Which is something lost on other players. Not playing for your own face time, but playing for the sake of the song.

McVie always impresses me. I don't necessarily like his choices or his phrasings personally, but he's another one who never sacrifices being part of the rhythm section for movement. Which in my mind is the mark of a true master of his craft when it comes to bass. Which is also what will always elevate Jamerson above Jaco for me. Jaco was great at what he did, but to me he was a great soloist. He just happened to choose the bass as his instrument to convey what he had to say. Jamerson was able to weave deft movement into his lines, but never, ever sacrifice his role as a bassist. That to me is what makes him the undisputed master. Just my opinion of course.

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