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Post subject: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:49 pm
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Hi bassers,
I bought a current Am special P, I am enjoying it!

Just wondering if anyone actually knows what pickup is in them?
The fender site says "Vintage-Style Alnico Split Single-Coil Precision Bass®"

Is this any different to:
RW 50's P - "Vintage Split Single-Coil Precision Bass"
or 70's classic - "Vintage-Style Split Single-Coil Precision Bass"
or 50's classic "Vintage Split Single-Coil Precision Bass"
or others that say vintage or vintage-style, vintage-like
or MIM standard etc etc?

In the standard, the pickup is the Custom shop 62RI, which is also available for purchasing retail, labelled as the "original". Am I correct in that? Are none of the other fender P pickups worth selling?

Anyone have strong feelings towards one pickup over another?


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:33 pm
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Hey - alnico is the good stuff. So it can't be all that bad. I do not prefer Mexi or Japan in a dishpan pickups. Bro Dave knows which ones are what and what not.


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:03 pm
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Thanks SV. I not really judging it bad or good, just want to know if it is the same pickup that any other fender bass uses or used in the past?

I guess I want to know because the old itch of "what would it sound like with x pickup" is always there. I am ok with how it sounds now, but the itch needs scratching.

If I knew something about this pickup, I could try something reliably different (technically different) and satisfy the what if's in my head.


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:30 pm
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Well wallaby, you've got AlNiCo V (5) permenent magnets for pole pieces, and they're the very best that there is. There are none better. If you think there are better pu'ps out there, just have yours rewound instead by either Lindy Fralin, or Abby Yabarra (if she's taking any side work in her retirement).

Or you could buy a MIM Fender Standard Precision and try every aftermarket P-p'up known to mankind. That should only run you about two grand ($US), but it would be fun! :D

I'm currently running a pair of 1985 Seymour Duncan Quarter-Pounders and a pair of 2012 DiMarzio Split P's in my 1976 Fender Precision. They sound great together.

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2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:43 pm
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Thanks linnin, I figured they were alnico, due to having 'alnico' in the name :)

How do you know they are Alnico5 and not another alnico (2,3 or whatever)?
Is there some source of info?

I don't want to take a scattergun approach to trying every pickup, especially ones that are technically similar. Hence my need of the info.

I am no P bass expert, but I am almost at novice stage I guess :D Because I don't have a lot of bass experience, I can't tell exactly what tonal parameters I would like. If I could try maybe 2 or 3 pups that hopefully are tonally opposites of each other and of what I currently have, I would then have some reference as to what tickles my tastes for P pups?


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:43 pm
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Duncan-- Dimarzio-- Bartolini-- would be a good start for different type tone maybe.


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:23 am
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wallaby wrote:
Thanks linnin, I figured they were alnico, due to having 'alnico' in the name :)

How do you know they are Alnico5 and not another alnico (2,3 or whatever)?
Is there some source of info?


It's what Fender uses for its American made p'ups.

Quote:
I don't want to take a scattergun approach to trying every pickup, especially ones that are technically similar. Hence my need of the info.

I am no P bass expert, but I am almost at novice stage I guess :D Because I don't have a lot of bass experience, I can't tell exactly what tonal parameters I would like. If I could try maybe 2 or 3 pups that hopefully are tonally opposites of each other and of what I currently have, I would then have some reference as to what tickles my tastes for P pups?


A polar opposite of the split single coil AlNiCo Fender p'up would be DiMarzio's 'Split P's'. They are humbuckers and have twin ceramic magnet blades. I love them in conjunction with Seymour Duncan Quarter-Pounders. Blended together they give a positively HUGE sound that would otherwise be totally unobtainable by either pick up set by themselves.

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2017 Lefty American Professional Precision
2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:06 pm
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linnin wrote:
wallaby wrote:
Thanks linnin, I figured they were alnico, due to having 'alnico' in the name :)

How do you know they are Alnico5 and not another alnico (2,3 or whatever)?
Is there some source of info?


It's what Fender uses for its American made p'ups.

Quote:
I don't want to take a scattergun approach to trying every pickup, especially ones that are technically similar. Hence my need of the info.

I am no P bass expert, but I am almost at novice stage I guess :D Because I don't have a lot of bass experience, I can't tell exactly what tonal parameters I would like. If I could try maybe 2 or 3 pups that hopefully are tonally opposites of each other and of what I currently have, I would then have some reference as to what tickles my tastes for P pups?


A polar opposite of the split single coil AlNiCo Fender p'up would be DiMarzio's 'Split P's'. They are humbuckers and have twin ceramic magnet blades. I love them in conjunction with Seymour Duncan Quarter-Pounders. Blended together they give a positively HUGE sound that would otherwise be totally unobtainable by either pick up set by themselves.



On your Blades- - I put the Dim rails in my ash custom P and notice that there are no sparkly highs- no twank in the upper eq range- have you noticed that with the white pickups in your P bass ? It could be I maybe did something like put the wrong cap in there or just that the swamp ash body is absorbing the treble. Don't know. If you solo the Dimarzio rails do you get highs like with the other pickup in your bass?

I guess I'm saying that my rails sound a bit muffled .


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:18 pm
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OK Stroker-V, here's what I get with the DiM Split P's. Keep in mind that I am running GHS Precision Flats and also the Split P's are in a 'bridge position' a stock Precision just doesn't have. I do get nice bright open & airy highs. The flats just don't sparkle, but I'm sure if I were running rounds that the highs would have plenty of bite; spank, and sparkle. I like the solid even mid-range of this p'up, and the lows are very authoritative, tight & punchy.

I'm running stock 250K CTS pots and what are now 'vintage' ceramic disk tone caps. My body is Alder with very tight straight grain, and damned heavy too. BadAss II bridge and stainless steel nut. White neck is quite bright. I've always had a good top end with this bass even when factory stock.

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2017 Lefty American Professional Precision
2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:14 pm
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While the specs don't say Alnico 5 I'd be very surprised if it was anything else. That would require separate, low volume outsourcing which would be more expensive since the quantity ordered would be so small. Anything other than Alnico 5 would add another inventory item in the mass production environment which tends to complicate production. Those factors are why I say it is very doubtful to be anything but Alnico 5. The primary difference in Fender mass production pickups is the number of turns for the winding. Some are different because of the lead wire used and sometimes pole length.

Even the vintage flavored mass production pickup used in the 62 and 57 Reissues used Alnico 5, but they are wound to vintage like specs and the pole pieces are machine finished to be slightly longer than usual to yield higher magnetism which increases output a bit to make the vintage winding (fewer turns of Formvar wire) sound nearly as loud as one that is overwound with more turns.

The more overwound (the more turns of wire on the bobbin) the louder a pickup becomes. Output volume isn't everything. There is a serious downside as the more overwound a pickup is then the more the high end sparkle and even upper mids are reduced. I prefer a full range pickup with treble and upper mids if I want them and that makes me a proponent of vintage wind specs. I like the full range sound, not the bass tone heavy tone of an overwound P-Bass pickup pair. These pickups are wired up out of phase anyway for a humbucking type effect to reduce RFI. A side effect of wiring them out of phase is a further reduction of tonal range in higher frequencies. Couple overwinding with the way they are wired out of phase and overwinding of even a few percent yields a less bright tone. I love bright sounding P-Basses so much that right there is primarily why I favor single coil first generation P-Basses.

Sometimes if one wanted to accurately recreate the lower output of a vintage pickup aged for 40 or 50 or 60 years then Alnico 3 would be useful since it is about half the Gauss of Alnico 5 so you can approximate some aging of the magnetic poles by lowering the output without changing the wind. This would only be used in very high end reproduction custom made pickups for instruments costing many many times what a stock mass production instrument costs.

Here is the main issue with pickup comparison when you are talking about a stock American Special P-Bass. No matter what pickup you put in an American Special P-Bass unless you modify the tone control circuitry from the stock "Grease Bucket" circuit first it is going to sound different than it sounds in almost any other P-Bass that has a simple low pass filter circuit in any position of the tone control other than fully clockwise, the "wide open" position.

Before changing the pickup, I'd consider modifying the tone circuit to the more traditional one. Here's why. The "Grease Bucket" circuit is in fact a dual band filter. When you roll the treble down on a traditional low pass filter (such as on an American Standard or MIM Standard or any vintage P-Bass) it only cuts the highs leaving the bass frequency unaltered. In the "Grease Bucket" circuit when you roll the tone down from full on you are cutting both treble and to some degree also cutting the bass simultaneously. This makes it impossible to get the same tonal voicing from any pickup being used in the American Special P-Bass as you would get with the same pickup in a traditional single band filter setup, except again when the tone is cranked wide open.

The effect of the "Grease Bucket" tone circuit is not as subtle a difference as changing tone cap types. It is a far more apparent change in the effect of the tone control in general. When rolled all the way off a "Grease Bucket" circuit is mostly passing midrange frequencies to the output sending both highs and lows to ground. To me personally the Grease Bucket makes more sense in a Spanish electric guitar as it keeps it from getting muddy when you roll the tone off, but makes less sense in a bass instrument where I don't want to cut the bass just because I want to cut the treble.

If you don't like the way the pickup loses bass tonal flavor with the treble rolled off to any degree at all I can understand and relate to that. Been there, done that. The way this dual band tone circuit works could lead you to believe your pickup is lacking in low end, when actually it probably isn't. This same tone circuit was used in the Highway One models. Having owned one of those a while back I know the Grease Bucket is not for me personally. Some players love it I'm sure, but it is hard for me to get the same tones from it as from a traditional Fender P-Bass tone circuit.

Instead of changing pickups I'd change the tone circuit first. That is just a matter of rewiring the controls. You really don't need anything but a soldering iron, solder, one 0.05uF capacitor (the modern 0.047uF value is essentially the same thing) and simple hand tools. There is a chance you might need some control wire, especially on a Jazz but you can get that at any hardware or electronics shop. There are several types of tone caps and which type you choose is not as critical as just changing the circuit. I personally would look for a vintage 50 volt ceramic disc ($1 or less), Mylar Sprague Orange-Drop ($3) or Sprague 200 volt Vitamin-Q Paper-In-Oil ($15 or less) depending on personal preference for that instrument and budget. You could use any ceramic, poly, mylar or paper in oil types so long as the size is small enough to fit. Vintage ceramic discs about the size of a dime sound different to me from the new ones about the size of a pea. A good reliable tone cap source is Axegrinderz.com and the only place I buy instrument caps.

Changing the pickup or even talking about pickups on an instrument with the Grease Bucket tone circuit is putting the cart before the horse. First things first. I bet this one simple mod will make more difference on an American Special P-Bass than any new or different pickup no matter how much it costs. Here's one diagram you can use:
http://support.fender.com/service_diagrams/bass_guitars/019-2200_02A_SISD.pdf


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:51 pm
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Here, read this.

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=88570


There will be a quiz

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2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:29 pm
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IMPORTANT! Doing what I suggested to the tone circuit will absolutely void the warranty. Just FYI.


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:27 pm
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linnin wrote:
OK Stroker-V, here's what I get with the DiM Split P's. Keep in mind that I am running GHS Precision Flats and also the Split P's are in a 'bridge position' a stock Precision just doesn't have. I do get nice bright open & airy highs. The flats just don't sparkle, but I'm sure if I were running rounds that the highs would have plenty of bite; spank, and sparkle. I like the solid even mid-range of this p'up, and the lows are very authoritative, tight & punchy.

I'm running stock 250K CTS pots and what are now 'vintage' ceramic disk tone caps. My body is Alder with very tight straight grain, and damned heavy too. BadAss II bridge and stainless steel nut. White neck is quite bright. I've always had a good top end with this bass even when factory stock.



Okay- thanks for the info- it will help me figure out what's up with my P.


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:25 pm
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Thanks brotherdave. All info is appreciated. As you have given quite a lengthy reply, I have split it up here to help me comment on your points. Because I may challenge a point or two, don't think I am simply acting out of disagreement. It's clarity I seek. I have a fair understanding of electronics.

brotherdave wrote:
While the specs don't say Alnico 5 I'd be very surprised if it was anything else. That would require separate, low volume outsourcing which would be more expensive since the quantity ordered would be so small. Anything other than Alnico 5 would add another inventory item in the mass production environment which tends to complicate production. Those factors are why I say it is very doubtful to be anything but Alnico 5. The primary difference in Fender mass production pickups is the number of turns for the winding. Some are different because of the lead wire used and sometimes pole length.


I can totally understand the business logic of using one alloy. However even if we agree that my pickup is alnico5, it still doesn't make it a fact.
Still, this is the clearest info about the pickup : it is alnico magnet based.


Quote:
Even the vintage flavored mass production pickup used in the 62 and 57 Reissues used Alnico 5, but they are wound to vintage like specs and the pole pieces are machine finished to be slightly longer than usual to yield higher magnetism which increases output a bit to make the vintage winding (fewer turns of Formvar wire) sound nearly as loud as one that is overwound with more turns.


Re - the longer pole pieces. This is interesting. How do you know this? Also fender say that the wire on the 62 RI pup is enamel coated (http://www.fender.com/accessories/picku ... kup-black/) which I take to mean PE rather than Formvar. How would I know if my pup has even fewer turns (or more) than the linked pup?

Quote:
The more overwound (the more turns of wire on the bobbin) the louder a pickup becomes. Output volume isn't everything. There is a serious downside as the more overwound a pickup is then the more the high end sparkle and even upper mids are reduced. I prefer a full range pickup with treble and upper mids if I want them and that makes me a proponent of vintage wind specs. I like the full range sound, not the bass tone heavy tone of an overwound P-Bass pickup pair. These pickups are wired up out of phase anyway for a humbucking type effect to reduce RFI. A side effect of wiring them out of phase is a further reduction of tonal range in higher frequencies. Couple overwinding with the way they are wired out of phase and overwinding of even a few percent yields a less bright tone. I love bright sounding P-Basses so much that right there is primarily why I favor single coil first generation P-Basses.


Nothing to say except I agree entirely with it. I'd go further and say output volume has no bearing on anything to me personally.

Quote:
Sometimes if one wanted to accurately recreate the lower output of a vintage pickup aged for 40 or 50 or 60 years then Alnico 3 would be useful since it is about half the Gauss of Alnico 5 so you can approximate some aging of the magnetic poles by lowering the output without changing the wind. This would only be used in very high end reproduction custom made pickups for instruments costing many many times what a stock mass production instrument costs.


OK

Quote:
Here is the main issue with pickup comparison when you are talking about a stock American Special P-Bass. No matter what pickup you put in an American Special P-Bass unless you modify the tone control circuitry from the stock "Grease Bucket" circuit first it is going to sound different than it sounds in almost any other P-Bass that has a simple low pass filter circuit in any position of the tone control other than fully clockwise, the "wide open" position.


Yes that's true. I can see in electronic simulation what the greasebucket cct does compared to stock. It can also be argued that two stock P's with the same pups setup identically will sound different in any position of the tone control other than fully clockwise due to the nature of pots and value tolerance.

Quote:
Before changing the pickup, I'd consider modifying the tone circuit to the more traditional one. Here's why. The "Grease Bucket" circuit is in fact a dual band filter. When you roll the treble down on a traditional low pass filter (such as on an American Standard or MIM Standard or any vintage P-Bass) it only cuts the highs leaving the bass frequency unaltered.


Well, the standard low pass filter does cut highs, and to a further degree than the greasebucket does. You get some resonance (unavoidable with L's, C's and R's) which can actually show a peaky boost before the low pass rolloff. In my calcs, the stock tone control at '0' starts to roll of at about 300Hz while the greasebucket starts the roll off at 450Hz and at half the rate/steepness. With stock you get a little 'boost' between 200-300Hz. With the greasebucket a similar boost happens around the 400Hz. I do not see any loss of bass with the gb, just that the resonant peak happens in the mids rather than the bass/lowmids.

Quote:
In the "Grease Bucket" circuit when you roll the tone down from full on you are cutting both treble and to some degree also cutting the bass simultaneously. This makes it impossible to get the same tonal voicing from any pickup being used in the American Special P-Bass as you would get with the same pickup in a traditional single band filter setup, except again when the tone is cranked wide open.

The effect of the "Grease Bucket" tone circuit is not as subtle a difference as changing tone cap types. It is a far more apparent change in the effect of the tone control in general. When rolled all the way off a "Grease Bucket" circuit is mostly passing midrange frequencies to the output sending both highs and lows to ground. To me personally the Grease Bucket makes more sense in a Spanish electric guitar as it keeps it from getting muddy when you roll the tone off, but makes less sense in a bass instrument where I don't want to cut the bass just because I want to cut the treble.


The gb cct does not and cannot cut low frequencies. It is purely a low pass filter. Yes at tone full off the gb accentuates the mids perhaps giving an impression of bass loss?
I don't doubt what you hear. It does not send lows to ground, anymore than stock does.

Quote:
If you don't like the way the pickup loses bass tonal flavor with the treble rolled off to any degree at all I can understand and relate to that. Been there, done that. The way this dual band tone circuit works could lead you to believe your pickup is lacking in low end, when actually it probably isn't. This same tone circuit was used in the Highway One models. Having owned one of those a while back I know the Grease Bucket is not for me personally. Some players love it I'm sure, but it is hard for me to get the same tones from it as from a traditional Fender P-Bass tone circuit.


I agree with you here. If a player uses the tone control say from 0-3 (out of 10) they will be getting a much different sound than they would with stock. From 3-6 on the tone control is getting closer to stock. I doubt that I would hear a difference on the tone closer to the full on position.

Quote:
Instead of changing pickups I'd change the tone circuit first.


That's already on the cards. I don't mind the gb cct, I am more just wanting a stock P.
I won't go into the cap debate. I will agree that there is a difference between the ceramics and the rest. I am of 'school 2' in the link that linnin posted. Mind you it's subtle compared to merely bumping the tone control.

Quote:
Changing the pickup or even talking about pickups on an instrument with the Grease Bucket tone circuit is putting the cart before the horse.


Not for players who use their tone wide open or close to it!

Quote:
First things first. I bet this one simple mod will make more difference on an American Special P-Bass than any new or different pickup no matter how much it costs. Here's one diagram you can use:
http://support.fender.com/service_diagrams/bass_guitars/019-2200_02A_SISD.pdf


Strongly agree with you here for anyone with a greasebucket equipped bass (american special or hwy1 and others maybe?) who will use the tone control anywhere below halfway and wants a stock sound.

Thanks for your comments brotherdave.


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Post subject: Re: What pickup do I have? American Special P.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:26 am
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Linnin, have you modded the bass for two sets of P pickups or have you put two different pickups together?

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