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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:17 pm
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As far as values, the higher the value then the more highs (or upper mids) get dumped to ground. Fender uses a 0.05uF cap in about 95% of their passive basses historically. However in some they go to a 0.10uF. On the Musicmaster Bass Fender stacked a 0.022uF treble bleed on top on a 0.05uf tone control. I tend to stay around the 0.05, even when using a pickup Fender might have setup with a 0.10uf such as the 62 RI P-Bass. I use that pickup with a 0.05uf VQ cap and it is so bright it could peel paint. Love the clean upper mid tone and it barks for days. I don't think Fender has made a brighter split coil P-Bass pickup lately.

One Fender tone circuit I don't like is the Greasebucket. It just doesn't work well for me. I don't think Leo Fender designed it either.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:44 pm
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Now -- I notice a difference between using 500k pots and an 05 cap as apposed to using 250k pots and a 22 cap. To me there seems to be a difference. Or maybe I like the roll off of the 250- 22 better. I'm going deep and am doing an experiment with the bass I'm working on. Results later...


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:47 am
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stroker vance wrote:
Now -- I notice a difference between using 500k pots and an 05 cap as apposed to using 250k pots and a 22 cap. To me there seems to be a difference. Or maybe I like the roll off of the 250- 22 better. I'm going deep and am doing an experiment with the bass I'm working on. Results later...


500k pots are brighter and for a humbucking pickup, a split P-Bass, a Noiseless Jazz or for a P/J (due the loading issue) the 500k pots are a reasonable choice. Since they are somewhat brighter you'd probably want to use a higher value cap with them. Typically when 500k pots are used there might even be a lower value cap added as a treble bleed such as a 0.018 or 0.022uF in addition to the 0.05uF. Gibson did that on the Les Paul guitars.

250k pots are less bright and a good choice with single coil pickups. With 250k pots the 0.05 is sort of the Fender standard and Fender has used this combo with P-Basses, Jazzes, Telecaster guitars, Strats, etc at one time or another. When used with a humbucking type pickup though, the tone control part of the circuit doesn't seem to do as much. For example the 2nd generation Telecaster bass with the Seth Lover humbucking chromed pickup used the same control circuit as the 1st generation single coil Telecaster Bass, but the 2nd generation tone control didn't do as much.

I've really noticed that on modern P-Basses, especially the MIM ones, the tone control seems to be about useless. You can make the tone control do lots more by using a pickup that is wound to more vintage specs. As time has marched on stock pickups have been wound with more turns every few years in sort of a loudness competition. If you substitute a P-Bass pickup actually wound to early 60's specs with Alnico magnets in place of the overwound modern one with ceramic magnets, it is like taking cotton out of your ears, even with the stock 250k pots and stock cap. This is one reason the Duncan Antiquity pickups are so popular and why I'm such a fan of the Fender Original P-Bass pickup that was being used in the recently discontinued 62 American Vintage Reissue P-Bass. I think that 62 American VIntage Reissue pickup is the best split coil P-Bass pickup for the money. I like it as much as the Antiquity and it costs far less.

So it isn't all the tone cap. It is partly the pots and partly how severely overwound the pickup you are dealing with is and the pickup design itself. I'm a big fan of upper mids and I must have them in my tone. From experience I've learned I won't find that tone in overwound modern pickups no matter what I do. It is also tough to get it with noiseless or split coil pickups, but it can be done with split coils unless you overwind them. I want my passive instruments to sound almost active when I crank the tone knob wide open. Yeah, that bright. Of course I don't play like that all the time, just sometimes on some things.

I'm of the opinion that just because custom winders will overwind pickups does not mean you should get overwound pickups. Maybe I'm the first proponent of UNDERWOUND pickups?


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:02 pm
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:D oops - this won't delete.


Last edited by stroker vance on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:10 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
I like my sound the same as what you describe Dave. I also think Duncan Antiquity P bass pickups are very good . I need the snap of the treble in my tone . My best tone (the way I like it) is with the antiquity and turning the treb back about 1/3 - never more than that but sometimes less of a turn back. I can hit the string just hard enough to NOT click the frets and that gives that honk sound I love. I don't do that all the time. I need less than full treble to do it though or it sounds more like a "pop" than a metallic "honk". It kind of mimics the sound of very early (vintage p basses). It's really easy to get that sound on a real old pre CBS P. Not as much though with a modern Jazz or P bass. Maybe that's why 90 % of the time I change pickups on my Fenders. You say you can't find the tone in the modern overwound pickups no matter what you do and that is my exact feeling about it too. I've had very little exceptions to that rule. My 01 Jazz has the sound if I strike the string right with the stock pickups. It's easy to get the honk with Dimarzios also. But the old ones are the best. The split rail P-Dimarzios ( 500k pots) are great pickups also but they need a cap set up to give them enough treble in the sound to turn back the treble just right to get the honk sound. That is what it is all about and I can't describe it any other way.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:03 pm
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For what it's worth I swapped the ceramic disc cap in my Jaco fretless to a Sprague paper-in-oil and I not only hear the difference but like the change. I am playing a lot of higher register solo stuff right now and it was a nice, but subtle, change.
Nothing major but I can hear it so I guess I am in the #2 group.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:50 am
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Brother Dave, would you please tell us all about Fender's "Greasebucket" tone circuit. That intel would be nice to have in this thread also. Thanks.

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:32 pm
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linnin wrote:
Brother Dave, would you please tell us all about Fender's "Greasebucket" tone circuit. That intel would be nice to have in this thread also. Thanks.


The "Greasebucket" tone circuit was used in passive bass guitars and electric Spanish guitars in the Fender Highway One series. A traditional Fender passive tone control is a variable low pass filter that simply cuts treble range frequencies. The "Greasebucket" behaves as variable mid pass filter for passive instruments. From the name you'd think it added something nasty or greasy to the tone, but it doesn't. The name is just good marketing. In essence the "Greasebucket" is both a variable high pass filter and variable low pass filter in one and controlled by one knob. The result to me when "Greasebucket" tone knob is rolled off you are rolling off both highs and lows and not just the highs. That leaves mids uncut. When the "Greasebucket" tone control knob is turned completely off then the mid frequencies are emphasized more than highs or lows.

Look at the graphic EQ on almost any bassist's rig that has one. How is it set? Very often it is in a broad U-shape so that both highs and lows are boosted and mids are cut. This is often called "scooping the mids." Some bass preamps actually have a "Scoop" button that cuts the mids just like using a graphic EQ in a U-shape will do. A "Greasebucket" tone circuit in a bass does exactly the opposite imparting an upside down "U-shape" to the instrument's basic tone when the tone knob is rolled off. The "Greasebucket" does cut the highs more than lows, but cuts enough lows to be a hindrance to me on an electric bass.

The logic behind the "Greasebucket" and the reason for it being done is when you roll off the highs there is an audible illusion, it can sound as if you increased the bass. Actually you didn't, you only cut highs. Since what is left is mids and lows in some EQ arrangements with some pickups the low frequencies become dominant over the mids so it sounds like you increased the bass, when actually you didn't increase the bass at all. I find this effect very noticeable with a Stratocaster into a tube amp for example. This can make the Strat sound bass heavy or even what could be called "muddy." That is especially noticeable with electric Spanish guitars more than in electric basses where a low frequency fundamental tone is more desirable.

The "Greasebucket" to me makes more sense therefore on a Spanish electric 6 string electric because it can actually keep the tone from getting muddy or too dark. On a bass it isn't as pleasing or beneficial since basses live and breathe the low frequencies and more players than not cut mids on their EQ, or at least don't boost mids as much as highs or lows.

For example almost all J-Bass players know that on a passive J-Bass with a normal tone arrangement you can get tones that are somewhat in the ballpark of a passive P-Bass by soloing the neck pickup and rolling off some highs using the tone knob on the J-Bass. But in a J-Bass with the "Greasebucket" that won't happen because the lows are getting cut along with the highs leaving you with a more midrange heavy tone which lacks the familiar bottom boom associated with a Fender P-Bass tone.

For Spanish guitars this can actually be a good thing, but I find it a lackluster way to control voicing for electric bass, especially live. There are some good sounds in a "Greasebucket" circuit on a Fender Bass, but finding them is more of a treasure hunt to me than using a traditional low pass tone circuit. Finding the sweet spots on any bass with a "Greasebucket" is not something I can reliably and repeatedly do live.

Like I said, it can be beneficial on some instruments like Strats or Tele guitars, so the "Greasebucket" circuit does have merit there. But on a bass I'm not a big fan of it.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:34 pm
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+1 on the "I'm not a fan of it" thing. I'm also not a fan of S-1 switchington. So no Greasebucket or S-1 for me.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:06 pm
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Now this is a super good thread jam packed with useful info all about passive tone circuitry on a level that just about anyone can understand. Even me :wink: And It's All In One Place!Thanks Brother Dave for your time & expertise.

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:43 pm
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Okay! So here's my two cents to this topic. Here I found several links that describe or explain the use of potentiometers and capacitors in a guitar/bass! However, some articles say that there is a difference in tone between types of caps. Based on what I know about capacitors in automotive electronics (which by the way work the same but with a different purpose) to me there's no difference. Only when you change the caps value is when you can notice the difference. As stated in the link from Seymour Duncan, the tone cap only works when you roll off the tone potentiometer.

Concerning potentiometers, the higher the resistance the brighter the sound. Standard potentiometers for passive guitars and basses are the 250 to 500 Kohms (250 to 500 thousand ohms) of resistance, but I believe that you can go up to 1Mohm (1 million ohms). Check the last link from Stewart Mac Donald. I think I'm going to try those 1Mohm potentiometers! I'll let you know!

Enjoy reading!

http://www.electric-guitar-info.com/guitar-capacitors.html

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Tone_Capacitors_for_Stratocasters_Part_1

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Tone_Capacitors_for_Stratocasters_Part_2

http://www.seymourduncan.com/tonefiend/guitar/customize-your-caps/

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Potentiometers/Alpha_Control_Pots.html

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:03 pm
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Quote:
250k pots are less bright and a good choice with single coil pickups. With 250k pots the 0.05 is sort of the Fender standard and Fender has used this combo with P-Basses, Jazzes, Telecaster guitars, Strats, etc at one time or another. When used with a humbucking type pickup though, the tone control part of the circuit doesn't seem to do as much. For example the 2nd generation Telecaster bass with the Seth Lover humbucking chromed pickup used the same control circuit as the 1st generation single coil Telecaster Bass, but the 2nd generation tone control didn't do as much.


BD and I have talked about this before. I had a pair of 72 Tele's, now just one. I bought them because they were significant to Fender as the first humbucking pickup. But as BD presents, the tone adjustment is minimal...to the point I first questioned if it was properly functioning. I still like my remaining Tele, and have affected its sound by stringing it with telephone lines, darn near.

BD has played side by side, I have not. Never owned a version one Tele, and I will at some point. I understand my 52P is close....a thousand clever sayings come to mind there, use your own.

Steve

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:17 pm
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jazzbassjo wrote:
For what it's worth I swapped the ceramic disc cap in my Jaco fretless to a Sprague paper-in-oil and I not only hear the difference but like the change. I am playing a lot of higher register solo stuff right now and it was a nice, but subtle, change.
Nothing major but I can hear it so I guess I am in the #2 group.


It sounds cleaner up the neck, less distortion right? What amp and cab did you use to decide this?


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:16 pm
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Dave sorry for the late response. Have not been on here too often.
As far as the sound, YES it sounds very clean at those higher registers. For what I am playing at this point on this instrument it really has been a nice improvement.

At the moment the main 'rig' I am playing through is a Hartke 1115 Combo rig.
It has a 3500 amplifier (350 watt) into 1 15" and a 5". The solid state side is very clean to my ears(it has a tube side also). This is a long discontinued model given to me as a gift from Larry Hartke himself.

Since this change I am rather convinced that if you know how these caps can affect your tone and know what you want to hear, you can make a good choice for your sound. Thanks Dave, you sure helped in giving me the knowledge to make that choice.

I have the opportunity to access older (early '70s) circuit cards used by telephone companies and since they throw away a lot of those outdated electronics I can play around with them. Lots of Sprauge caps going into the trash. I like to test them all with a digital meter and collect anything that looks interesting. A new sort of geeky hobby for me!


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:59 am
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Very glad to have stumbled on this thread. I recently got into wiring my own electronics and have been "cap rolling" with my 50's Classic Precision bass. After swapping out the stock pup with a 62 Original I decided to mess with some other cap values and makes. I replaced the stock .1 cap with a small, blue cylindrical cap that I got from a friend who builds amps. It's a .047 with a small sticker and the word "Molded" printed on it. I much prefer this value and type to the .1 Gudeman PIO I had tried previously. The "molded" cap is kind of a mystery to me as far as type...I see conflicting info that states these are paper in oil and others that say its a poly cap. Either way,
I like it alot. I also have some NOS Sprague VQ .047 200v that I'm going to try next, being that I really like this value and like to tinker. Anyone know about the construction of these "blue molded" caps? I also tried a big green Cornell Dubillier .05 400v that I liked as well but again, couldn't find much info on the makeup.


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