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Post subject: Caps
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:21 pm
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Okay -


Last edited by stroker vance on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:29 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
Okay - I went to my local Music Store ( 50 + years in town) to pick up my DP127BF "Split Rails" Dimarzio P bass pickup(s). Along with the purchase I bought 2 new 500k pots. The owner and I had a discussion about caps. Which cap should I use- what the difference is and what they do to the sound. The basic info I walked away with was that one can not hear the difference in a cap. Let's say that I purchase a 2A473 (05) cap. According to him I can not hear the difference between a green 05 or an orange wafer 05 or an orange drop or a chicklit 05 cap. All they do is the operation they are made to do. Some are just bigger or smaller. Okay well.... This puzzles me because I was under the impression that I could hear the difference but now that I think about it I don't think I can. There has been discussion here about which caps are the best to use with a P or J bass and reasons why have been given.

Question= Is hearing a difference in a cap , hearing a broader range in treble bandwidth cut or a certain broader specific fequency bandwidth cut range change ? Am I close? I'd like to pin it down.

I may need more explanation as I am confused as to what contrary information I may have read on the threads over the years or if my man is full of it or if everything may fall somewhere in the middle.

Brother Dave may know this... well he probably does. I'm on stand by mode.


Let me say that when I describe a cap in use for a guitar I am talking about the proper tolerance type cap that is typically used. I know there can be caps as big as my head.

Confused in Ohio :? Tell me what you think/know okay? Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:28 pm
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I've read quite a bit concerning tone caps that are spread out among several different threads. Would be nice to have it all here in one thread, and maybe be made a 'sticky'.

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One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:11 am
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I have all the Pittsburgh Pirate on-field caps, 2 black and one gold and black.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:22 am
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oxfan wrote:
I have all the Pittsburgh Pirate on-field caps, 2 black and one gold and black.


I can't wait to fit one in my control compartment.

But seriously folks- the cap issue is something I would like to be clear on once and for all. I kind of feel like I've been walking thru the electric forest and have never bumped into the capacitor tree. I need the definitive information. Yes it would be nice to have a thread that's all about the pots, caps, grounds, input jacks, wire, etc. This could all be within reason pertaining to our basses -- we wouldn't have to have a total electronics class- just some nice stuff about do's and don'ts and what to expect from this and that... you know. Okay that's all I know. :D


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:16 am
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Brother Dave! Calling Brother Dave!

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One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:52 am
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What linnin said. Dave is very opinionated about caps, he's had a lot say about them. he'll be around soon. He and Gustav Hanlenshelsier were playing golf today.


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Post subject: Re: Tone Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:18 am
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Tone Thrival = Sprague "Vitamin Q" 0.47 microfrads = Tip Top Fender Tone For Days.

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2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:58 pm
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I am looking forward to this thread as well. Lots of bits and pieces out there, be nice talk it through in one place.

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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:20 pm
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Two schools of thought.

School 1: "There is NO DIFFERENCE in tone caps."

School 2: "There are tonal differences in tone caps."

To see whether you personally belong in school 1 into school 2 you need a passive bass instrument preferably with a single coil pickup like a first generation P-Bass, a good clean preamp, a clean power amp into a full range 2 way cab, a vintage ceramic disc cap (50v 0.05/0.047 uF and either a paper-in-oil or a Sprague MYLAR Orange Drop tone cap of the same uF value as the ceramic disc. (There are two types of Orange Drops, Poly and Mylar and you should do this comparison only with either the Mylar version Orange Drop or a paper in oil cap.) Start with either cap in the tone cap position. Then swap out to using the other cap in the tone cap position.

Check the full tonal range of the tone control from full on the full off and various spots in between and do the same with the volume control with each cap. If you don't hear any difference anywhere, especially on upper notes with the horn cranked, you are a School 1 person. If you notice the tone is perceptively smoother and less distorted or edgy on high notes with the paper in oil or the Mylar cap, then you are a School 2 person.

I'm a school 2 person.

While all types of caps do the same thing on paper, to me there is an obvious tonal difference, at least in the upper tonal component of passive bass signals.

Retroverbial knows way more about electronics than I do and I'd love to hear his take on this issue. From an engineering standpoint on paper there is no difference.

Using a Spanish electric Fender guitar into any garden variety guitar amp with lots of the inherent distortion present in most guitar amps or adding lots of drive or overdrive masks any difference in passive tone caps, so the cap type matters less in situations like that.

Where I hear the difference more clearly is with a passive single coil bass fed direct or when using a pretty clean preamp/amp into a 2 way cab with the horns cranked up. If you kill the horn you don't hear as much difference between the two caps with a bass either.

To me the Ceramic Discs (I mean the vintage ones the size of a nickle, not the current Fender reproduction the size of a pea) impart a far more aggressive character in the basic tonal quality of the bass especially on high notes up the neck. It is a slight edge which I'd say is something like upper tonal harmonic distortion. This is a very desirable thing in certain situations for bassists playing live because it adds thickness, but it is somewhat less desirable to me for recording direct because you can always dirty up a clean basic tone but so far as I know cleaning up a dirty basic tone once recorded is impossible.

These are very subtle differences and you need a clean full range amp system or clean DI to hear it. If you are playing a split coil P-Bass into a rig without horns you probably won't hear much difference if any at all.

The reason I say to compare the vintage ceramic disc and a paper-in-oil or Mylar cap is because the difference between those two are the most obvious for me to discern. The Sprague MYLAR Orange Drop and the Sprague Poly Orange Drop have slightly different tonal character with the Mylar version being much smoother sounding approaching the ultimate clean sound of a paper-in-oil. For under $3 the Mylar Orange Drops get real close. The ultimate clean to me is the Sprague Paper-In-Oil (Sprague Vitamin-Q type which has been made by people other than Sprague also.)

In between the Ceramic Disc and Vitamin-Q come all the rest with varying degrees of edge in the basic tonal character they impart. While the Poly Orange Drop is the one most people think of when someone says "Orange Drop" and also the only Orange Drop sold by most online guitar parts dealers in my opinion the Mylar Orange Drop sounds very different and is worth tracking down. The Mylar Orange Drops are sort of boxy looking while the Poly Orange Drops are roundish.

There are lots of cap types, but many are not stable enough to use in a guitar circuit permanently. They are more prone to value changes as they age and some types like paper in wax can leak. So I suggest using ceramic disc, poly/Mylar film or Vitamin-Q type caps in passive instrument tone circuits as they are very stable in value over decades and don't leak. Gibson for example uses Sprague "Bumble Bee" caps in their high end instruments.

When comparing tone caps the differences are very subtle but between Ceramic Disc and Paper In Oil to me there is a difference. The less highs in the pickup and the more distortion in the amp chain then the less you are going to hear a difference. Yes on paper they are all the same. However I can hear some differences in certain applications.

Also I've heard of players who put in Vitamin-Q's only to take them out because they sounded too clean and made their bass sound "lifeless and dead." That is because it got rid of the distortion they'd gotten used to over many years. With it gone they felt the instrument just didn't sound right. They missed the ceramic disc edge. Different strokes for different folks.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:49 pm
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Thank you Brother Dave! :mrgreen:

I also recall some commentary elsewhere about both voltage and microfarad values. Would you care to recap? Just to have everything in one place, if you don't mind. :)

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2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:10 pm
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Another point about caps. The tolerance factor should not be overlooked. Just because a cap is labeled 0.05 or 0.047uF doesn't mean it is. Check it on a meter to know for sure. As some types age the value can change. The tolerance factor varies from type to type and even from spec to spec on various orders. 0.05 uf ceramics with a 20% tolerance factor can read 0.04 to 0.06 and still be within spec. That is quite a difference tone wise.

So in any cap comparisons make sure the cap values MATCH for real and not just on the stamping. Otherwise you'll get the wrong impression.

The closer to the desired value the better of course.


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:11 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
Okay -



Why'd you edit that out? It was a perfectly good topic! LOL


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:07 pm
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I understand a little more now. I'm still thinking and I know I'll have a question soon. :)


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Post subject: Re: Caps
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:51 pm
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I use the 50 volt ceramic discs like Fender used because that is what Fender used. I use 200 volt paper in oil Vitamin-Q ones.

I tend to use the 200 volt VQ ones more because they are way smaller than the 400 volt ones, but some people say there is some minor tonal difference also between the 200 and 400 volt VQ's and they prefer one or the other.

If the value is the same, or reasonably close, I honestly can't tell much difference between 200v or 400v other than size...but don't knock those who say there is a difference because they are entitled to their opinion and they might have a different setup.

I've not used a bunch of different ceramics, other than the current Fender reproduction ceramic and the vintage 50 volt. The vintage one to me is the edgy one. I don't think the reproduction ones have the same edge that the vintage ceramic ones do. I mean the vintage ceramic ones are like $1, so why not go there instead of a reproduction?

Still one has to wonder how in the world what type of cap you use to dump treble to ground could possibly impact tone since you aren't hearing the dumped highs. I mean logically I didn't think it should matter myself. But yet to me it does seem to matter some.

This is a frequently debated issue. You might try it and hear no difference. "Your Mileage May Vary" as they say a lot around here.

We are not talking huge tonal difference here anyway, just subtle differences in upper harmonic distortion. That's all. For me with a full range setup hearing the difference is more obvious between the ceramic and the VQ than comparing say a couple of different poly ones.

If you hear no difference between different type caps you are not alone. It is one of those preference things like what strings are the "best" strings or pick versus fingers. Some care, some don't. One thing is sure though, most guitar makers will use whatever is cheapest.

OK one more thing about tone. Not only is there a tolerance factor in caps but also in pots. Just because a pot is stamped 250k or 500k doesn't mean it is that exact value. It will be close, but probably not 250k or 500k exactly. 10% is the usual tolerance factor on CTS audio taper pots so the 250k ones will read 225k to 275k. Yes that can make a difference too! Not much, but some difference yes.


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