It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:42 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Let's get some opinions on the finish's effect on sound/tone
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:57 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:30 pm
Posts: 31
I've always been on the fence about this. Some people swear that nitrocellulose laquer, especially older/aged nitro, has a huge effect on the overall tone and resonance of the wood, where a 'thick' polyurethane tends to smother the wood and not let it "breath".

I'm not sure where I stand. I've had basses finished in either, and I can't say I've 'felt' or heard the difference. Then again, I've never been able to A/B the same bass with different finishes. And I don't have two examples of the exact same bass, 1 with nitro and 1 with polyurethane.

Concerning an electric solid body guitar/bass - I'm not saying resonance doesn't matter, because it obviously does - and different woods will resonate differently and offer different tonal characteristics - BUT -

As far as the actual finish goes - am I going too far out by saying that it's more significant on an acoustic, where a vibrating top is essential for sound production?

I'm looking for arguments supporting both sides because I'm open to either opinion. Would just like to get some information together, maybe someone has seen some actual evidence suggesting the effect (or lack of) nitrocellulose vs polyurethane on sound of a solid body electric bass/guitar?


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Let's get some opinions on the finish's effect on sound/
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:45 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 3169
Location: Linningrad
Had a great friend (sadly now deceased) that sanded the finish off his then brand new 1972 Rickenbacker 4003 and just stained it and oiled it. Swore it sounded better. I couldn't tell the difference. The bass still exsists exactly as he left it. I just no longer have access to it. I will say that it was a fantastic sounding bass. 8)

_________________
2012 Lefty American Standard Jazz
2017 Lefty American Professional Precision
2018 Rumble Studio 40 Combo
2016 Rumble 200 Combo
One day they shall name a GREAT city after me, and they shall call it LINNINGRAD


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Let's get some opinions on the finish's effect on sound/
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:05 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Albemarle, NC
I don't think that if you could have two otherwise identical instruments (which you can't of course) that there would be any difference in the one with fresh nitro from the one with fresh poly. 20 years later maybe you'd have a noticeable difference if it was an all nitro finish, which it usually isn't.

A poly instrument will sound the same in 20 years where the all nitro one will possibly have dried more, become lighter and more resonant. How much lighter and more resonant is variable as it depends on storage and other environmental considerations.

An important fact often overlooked by nitro-heads is that nitrocellulose lacquer does not have a one-way valve to only let moisture out, but instead is a two-way street and moisture can also get in! This led to vehicles rusting right through the nitro paint! Poly dries faster, lasts longer and requires less waxing to maintain a showroom luster and keeps moisture out making it a better rust prevention paint for cars.

Nitro wears faster, it is also far more environmentally sensitive with temperature extremes causing cracking, crazing etc sooner than on poly. Nitro Fender sunbursts for instance are infamous for scaling off in flakes on instruments exposed to temperature extremes. Poly is far more durable and resistant to temperature extremes.

Some vintage instruments sound better than others of the same model and vintage. This was probably true when the two were new also. Nitro alone is not the only consideration in tone and I consider nitro an almost insignificant tonal factor. I prefer a more durable finish personally but have nothing against owning vintage all nitro instruments (Pre 1964 Fenders) that sound good. That being said, there is no reason to put the poly on a quarter inch thick! Thin poly finishes are actually more durable than very thick ones. The very thick ones when bumped will come off in chunks.

Here is a little known and conveniently overlooked fact, when you shoot nitro on over a poly primer/sealer you might as well do a poly top coat. There is absolutely no advantage to having a nitro topcoat if you aren't using a nitro primer. Most nitro top coats today have a poly primer/sealer except the see through blondes and naturals.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Let's get some opinions on the finish's effect on sound/
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:12 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:30 pm
Posts: 31
Cool, thanks for the replies guys.

I also prefer a more durable finish - but also, the thick 'candy-coating' doesn't really do it for me. I just wonder about the resonance issue. The people that say things like poly "seals" everything, and the wood can't properly breath - which means it kills resonance. I can't see that being true to the point where it actually has an effect on tone - but again, only if we're talking solid body electrics.

Acoustic is a different story, especially when the vibrating top is essential for primary sound production. But on an electric guitar or bass, anyone who can pick that one finish leads to better tone than another has better ears than I do. A good bass, is a good bass, is a good bass, regardless of the finish.

Do people confuse resonance with vibration? Or are they one in the same when we're talking about this.. ?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Let's get some opinions on the finish's effect on sound/
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:30 pm
Posts: 31
brotherdave wrote:
Here is a little known and conveniently overlooked fact, when you shoot nitro on over a poly primer/sealer you might as well do a poly top coat. There is absolutely no advantage to having a nitro topcoat if you aren't using a nitro primer. Most nitro top coats today have a poly primer/sealer except the see through blondes and naturals.



Hrmm.. related to that. Isn't that the same idea as the new Am Std's that Fender advertises with a 'thinner undercoat'? I would assume that still using a polyurethane top coat would defeat any (potential) benefit to the thinner undercoat.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Let's get some opinions on the finish's effect on sound/
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:29 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Albemarle, NC
Thinner finishes reduce weight an ounce or two. I personally don't think a nitro finish is inherently or instantly more resonant even over a nitro primer/sealer. It is not an instant tonal improvement. Breathing through the nitro takes years and years to make any difference. A dud body with an all nitro finish will get lighter but will still be a dud compared to an exceptionally resonant body finished in poly, no matter how thick the poly is. A poly finished one will sound the same in 20 or 30 years while a nitro one may improve a bit however an all nitro finish on a dud will still be a dud even in 30 years.

Many excellent to near mint condition 60's instruments I have checked out are in such good shape for a reason, they do not sound or play as well as others of the same model and approximate year because they are duds. While ones that obviously have been played within a few inches of their life are preferable as players. I don't buy anything I don't want to play.

I'm not buying an instrument that costs more than my car to gig with. I'm also not buying or modding an instrument because I expect it to sound better in 20 or 30 years because I don't have that kind of time. I select one that sounds good, plays good and looks good now.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: