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Post subject: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:38 am
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Hi all, first post on the forums here. Been lurking for a while but decided to jump on board and sign up.

Just to introduce myself -
Name is Jason, from beautiful/cold/wet/windy(take your pick) Eastern Canada.

Been playing guitar for about 17 years, and bass has been my main thing for about 16 of those years. My gear right now is an '04 American Series Precision (chrome red/rosewood/) and an '06 Gibson Thunderbird that split playing time. Also an assortment of Franken and Mexican Fenders, and Epiphones in the stable. I was out of the game for a while but slowly getting back into it, which brings me back to places like this!

So anyway - I'm going to be in the market for a new bass over the next month or two, and I'm leaning towards a new ('12) Precision or 62 RI. Regarding the '12, I searched online and through the forum and here's what I've gathered -

-same neck profile as previous (recent) years, w/same 'graphite reinforcement.
-satin finish on the back of the neck, gloss on the headstock
-the tuners are Hipshots
-"thinner" undercoat
-new finish(s)
-"hi-mass" vintage bridge - marketed as new, but essentially the same as 2011. Which to me is just a bit different but not necesarrily improved over 2003-2010 (more mass then previous years, offers top load or string thru).

And the stuff that matters:

What is the deal on the new "custom shop" 60s pickup? I know this has been discussed countless times here so I apologize but I want to get some solid input and really find out what the difference is. From what I know, 03-07 uses the same pickup (with that crappy S1 switch) and 08-11 is also the same. I've played a 2012 in my local music store, but can't hear a significant difference from my '04 (well, i didn't compare them side-by-side).

Does anyone here have both a '62 RI and a '12 Am Std? I've read that the new pickup is slightly "underwound" (or, actually, just less overwound). Does anyone know what cap they're using? I'm wondering if Fender if trying to get back to a 'vintage' (ie. late 50s/60s) sound on the American Standard series. Some opinions (on the internet, of course..) seem to lean towards the new bass having less ouput, but a fuller/rounder sound with the tone rolled back.

Again - my apologies for starting another thread on this, but I'd love to hear from someone who has both a 2012 and a late model precision or 62 RI.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:29 pm
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The CS pup in the 12 AS is overwound but not severely. It will not sound as bright as the Original Vintage pup used in the 62 AVRI P-Bass which is very close to stock wind for a real 62. That Original Vintage pup is underwound by today's standards. I prefer the 62 but I'm a finger style player. If you play with a pick you probably won't like the '62 AVRI as much as the 12 Am Standard.

The stock cap in all passive USA Fender P-Basses whether single coil or split coil is 0.05uf EXCEPT on the 62 AVRI which uses a 0.10uF cap because the pickup sounds so bright next to any P-bass from CBS up.

As I've often said on here, overwinding pickups isn't the answer for tone. Underwinding them is the answer. The tone control on a '62 AVRI P-Bass actually has a function!


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:37 am
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brotherdave wrote:
The CS pup in the 12 AS is overwound but not severely. It will not sound as bright as the Original Vintage pup used in the 62 AVRI P-Bass which is very close to stock wind for a real 62. That Original Vintage pup is underwound by today's standards. I prefer the 62 but I'm a finger style player. If you play with a pick you probably won't like the '62 AVRI as much as the 12 Am Standard.

The stock cap in all passive USA Fender P-Basses whether single coil or split coil is 0.05uf EXCEPT on the 62 AVRI which uses a 0.10uF cap because the pickup sounds so bright next to any P-bass from CBS up.

As I've often said on here, overwinding pickups isn't the answer for tone. Underwinding them is the answer. The tone control on a '62 AVRI P-Bass actually has a function!


Thanks!

I actually play with a pick about 90% of the time. I enjoy good punch and clarity, but a lot of that is achieved through EQ. Low end thump without question starts with the bass itself though.
I'm sure I'd enjoy either bass, it's just a matter of settling. There are elements of both that I really like. In a nutshell - I already KNOW I'll like feel of the Am Std because I have one - unless it was a dud, in which case I'd have to figure something else out.
The AVRI opens up a few more questions for me because I've never played one, and I can't just walk into the store and grab one to try - my local store doesn't tend to stock them (they stock plenty of Fender basses though). So it boils down to tone/sound.


I've been happy with the sound of my '04 Am Std (well, I don't use the S-1) in a sense, I'm almost using it as my comparison point (I've got several other basses but this one is my go-to). I wonder if there is any difference in ouput with the new pickup?

I guess if this makes sense - I don't want to buy a bass that sounds "tamer" than my '04, if that's a good word for it. Of course I can play the AS in the store, but I can't turn it up and dig into it with one of my buds hitting the drums and another running his Les Paul through a 4x12 Marshall. It's one thing to 'test' it out in the store, but it's totally different when you're at volume, at rehearsal or a gig.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:35 am
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If you could have the chance to hear the two basses thru a high end rig like my SWR with Epifani 115 cab you would hear the difference between the two basses right away. It's uncanny the way that cabinet presents the sound. I usually play thru the GKRB800 and Ampeg 410-- which is a kickin live amp but does not present the nuances of different basses the way the Epifani does. You can stop over anytime and plug into it if you want.

Here I go again with the disclaimers:::: The words "high end" are meant as a descriptive concept held by the writer to convey information pertaining to different levels of auditory appreciation and perception and not meant to imply that the op does not have or know what a high end bass amp is. In mentioning the words "Epifani" and "SWR", it is not meant as an endorsement but is meant to provide an "example" pertaining to a point of reference on which to base an implied point of comparison by the writer..

I had to charge myself $50 for that last paragraph.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:19 pm
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Nice disclaimer, lol.

Yeah, I'm sure I'd dig the tone of either bass. I actually like the sound of my '04 Am Std, and I've read that the Am Std pickups from 03-07 aren't really held in high regard.

Maybe I don't necessarily want to compare a '12 Am Std vs. a '62 AVRI as much I want to compare them to my '04. Can't go wrong with either one.

Like I said though, the main issue is I'd have to order the '62 without getting a chance to play it. And because I know the neck shape/size is significantly different, I don't know how much I'd like/dislike it. Although most people seem to prefer it.
The vintage style case and case candy don't mean a whole lot to me other than the novelty.

Are the AVRI's built significantly better than the Am Stds? All the Fenders I've seen in recent years seemed to be really up their in quality, including the standard Mexican models.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:14 pm
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[quote="jasonthefox"]Nice disclaimer, lol.

Yeah, I'm sure I'd dig the tone of either bass. I actually like the sound of my '04 Am Std, and I've read that the Am Std pickups from 03-07 aren't really held in high regard.

Maybe I don't necessarily want to compare a '12 Am Std vs. a '62 AVRI as much I want to compare them to my '04. Can't go wrong with either one.
'''''''''''''''
That's interesting that you say that because I do that all the time with my couple of favorite basses. I've gone thru a ton of basses comparing them to the ones that are my favorites. I find that I am disappointed more times than not.
I won't say exactly how many times I've gotten rid of basses that didn't quite meet the favorites I have. You'd be surprised at how many.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:02 am
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The AVRI P-Bass pickup with rosewood board is perfect for me. It CUTS better than my 51 P-Bass with a Lindy Fralin Split-Coil 51 Pickup in it, and that Fralin is a very highly regarded piece of engineering. The AVRI 62 P-Bass cuts somewhat less than a stock 68 Telecaster single coil pickup which was probably the best cut through the mix first-generation Precision pickup Fender ever used.

The pickup in the AVRI would be the 2nd best cut through the mix pickup Fender has put in a P-Bass body. It also can get mellow so it is very, very versatile....especially with a 0.05uF cap which is what I'm using with it instead of the stock 0.10uF. That pairing is so bright and alive that it is perfect for me and what I want personally. The Custom Shop one is slightly overwound in comparison. I am not fond of overwound Precision pickups and prefer them underwound on a P-Bass.

The opinions expressed here are mine. Your mileage may vary! The AVRI 62 is probably the best production Precision in the FMIC era. It is as close as you can get to a Pre-CBS P-Bass. I'd take a Fender 62 AVRI P-Bass over any other FMIC regular production bass ever made. In order to get that close to Pre-CBS goodness you have to go Custom Shop and spend 3 times the money. If you don't at least try one you will never know what you are missing.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:02 pm
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Edit: duplicate, oops.


Last edited by jasonthefox on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:05 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
The AVRI P-Bass pickup with rosewood board is perfect for me. It CUTS better than my 51 P-Bass with a Lindy Fralin Split-Coil 51 Pickup in it, and that Fralin is a very highly regarded piece of engineering. The AVRI 62 P-Bass cuts somewhat less than a stock 68 Telecaster single coil pickup which was probably the best cut through the mix first-generation Precision pickup Fender ever used.

The pickup in the AVRI would be the 2nd best cut through the mix pickup Fender has put in a P-Bass body. It also can get mellow so it is very, very versatile....especially with a 0.05uF cap which is what I'm using with it instead of the stock 0.10uF. That pairing is so bright and alive that it is perfect for me and what I want personally. The Custom Shop one is slightly overwound in comparison. I am not fond of overwound Precision pickups and prefer them underwound on a P-Bass.

The opinions expressed here are mine. Your mileage may vary! The AVRI 62 is probably the best production Precision in the FMIC era. It is as close as you can get to a Pre-CBS P-Bass. I'd take a Fender 62 AVRI P-Bass over any other FMIC regular production bass ever made. In order to get that close to Pre-CBS goodness you have to go Custom Shop and spend 3 times the money. If you don't at least try one you will never know what you are missing.


I must ask - what is the 1st best for that purpose?


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:46 am
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jasonthefox wrote:
Nice disclaimer, lol.

Yeah, I'm sure I'd dig the tone of either bass. I actually like the sound of my '04 Am Std, and I've read that the Am Std pickups from 03-07 aren't really held in high regard.

Maybe I don't necessarily want to compare a '12 Am Std vs. a '62 AVRI as much I want to compare them to my '04. Can't go wrong with either one.

Like I said though, the main issue is I'd have to order the '62 without getting a chance to play it. And because I know the neck shape/size is significantly different, I don't know how much I'd like/dislike it. Although most people seem to prefer it.
The vintage style case and case candy don't mean a whole lot to me other than the novelty.

Are the AVRI's built significantly better than the Am Stds? All the Fenders I've seen in recent years seemed to be really up their in quality, including the standard Mexican models.

I'm going to play devil's advocate - are you sure you want a duplicate bass? I know you have a Gibson and other basses, but are you sure you want a bass that is essentially going to be a backup or supplant the bass you already know you like?

Personally, I like to have different instruments, whether it's the pickups, scale length, fretless, flats vs. rounds, etc. I enjoy the differences between instruments, I find that I play differently on each instrument, and enjoy that aspect of the creative process. Just my two cents - I'm impressed that you really seem to know what you want.

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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:29 pm
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hieronymous wrote:
jasonthefox wrote:
Nice disclaimer, lol.

Yeah, I'm sure I'd dig the tone of either bass. I actually like the sound of my '04 Am Std, and I've read that the Am Std pickups from 03-07 aren't really held in high regard.

Maybe I don't necessarily want to compare a '12 Am Std vs. a '62 AVRI as much I want to compare them to my '04. Can't go wrong with either one.

Like I said though, the main issue is I'd have to order the '62 without getting a chance to play it. And because I know the neck shape/size is significantly different, I don't know how much I'd like/dislike it. Although most people seem to prefer it.
The vintage style case and case candy don't mean a whole lot to me other than the novelty.

Are the AVRI's built significantly better than the Am Stds? All the Fenders I've seen in recent years seemed to be really up their in quality, including the standard Mexican models.

I'm going to play devil's advocate - are you sure you want a duplicate bass? I know you have a Gibson and other basses, but are you sure you want a bass that is essentially going to be a backup or supplant the bass you already know you like?

Personally, I like to have different instruments, whether it's the pickups, scale length, fretless, flats vs. rounds, etc. I enjoy the differences between instruments, I find that I play differently on each instrument, and enjoy that aspect of the creative process. Just my two cents - I'm impressed that you really seem to know what you want.


Good points, but I don't really think of it as a total 'duplicate'. I guess that's part of why I keep harping on the particulars of the new custom shop "60s" pickup. I'd like to think it will offer something my 04 precision doesn't.

I'm on the same page as you are though- I like different basses and I like how different basses make me play. You get a certain vibe off different basses and it totally influences what you do with it. It just happens that the precision is my go-to bass for the most part. My Thunderbird also sees some time, and the rest (frankenfender, a '98 MIM p-bass, an epiphone viola, and some assorted cheapo's) get the rest.

But anyway, I ended up ordering a '12 precision Am Std, in Olympic white with rosewood. Basically went over the features of each bass (Am Std vs. '62 AVRI) and decided the list was a little longer for the Am Std. I like the modern frets as opposed to the smaller vintage style, I dig the string through bridge, modern (non-reverse) tuners, and absolutely love the modern C neck profile. Although I've never played the AVRI, I'm a bit weary on the neck shape being wider, albeit with a smaller fretboard radius. Which is strange, because I don't like a neck that's *too* thin. I never really like jazz necks. My Thunderbird's neck is every bit as narrow as a jazz neck, with less of a taper towards the body also, but it has a rounder, slightly chunkier profile front to back.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:23 pm
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jasonthefox wrote:
brotherdave wrote:
The AVRI P-Bass pickup with rosewood board is perfect for me. It CUTS better than my 51 P-Bass with a Lindy Fralin Split-Coil 51 Pickup in it, and that Fralin is a very highly regarded piece of engineering. The AVRI 62 P-Bass cuts somewhat less than a stock 68 Telecaster single coil pickup which was probably the best cut through the mix first-generation Precision pickup Fender ever used.

The pickup in the AVRI would be the 2nd best cut through the mix pickup Fender has put in a P-Bass body. It also can get mellow so it is very, very versatile....especially with a 0.05uF cap which is what I'm using with it instead of the stock 0.10uF. That pairing is so bright and alive that it is perfect for me and what I want personally. The Custom Shop one is slightly overwound in comparison. I am not fond of overwound Precision pickups and prefer them underwound on a P-Bass.

The opinions expressed here are mine. Your mileage may vary! The AVRI 62 is probably the best production Precision in the FMIC era. It is as close as you can get to a Pre-CBS P-Bass. I'd take a Fender 62 AVRI P-Bass over any other FMIC regular production bass ever made. In order to get that close to Pre-CBS goodness you have to go Custom Shop and spend 3 times the money. If you don't at least try one you will never know what you are missing.


I must ask - what is the 1st best for that purpose?


I play finger style almost exclusively. Upper mid tones are the ones that cuts through and projects. For maximum cut through I prefer a first generation style single coil P-Bass pickups. As I stated the 68 Telecaster Bass ones are probably the best cut through P-bass pickups Fender ever made. That is because they have such hot upper mids and usually they are on maple boarded basses which makes them bark more. The problem with any single coil pickup is that they are are not as immune to RFI as split coil pickups. In some environments there is too much RFI for a single coil to be usable. You can minimize the RFI by copper tape shielding to ground, but even that does not make them as immune as a split coil 2nd generation P-Bass pickup. That is why there was a second generation with split coil pickups.

The split coil pickup Fender uses in the AVRI 62 P-Bass has the most upper mids of any Fender made split coil P-Bass pickup I've tried and thus is the best cut through 2nd generation Fender design I've used. I think this pickup, called today The Fender Original Precision Bass Pickup (Fender part# 0992046000) is a super upgrade for finger style players that want their tone control to actually do something, especially with a 0.05uF capacitor. Paired with a 0.05uF cap you have a very bright combo, one so bright that it is probably not a good combination for pick users. Pickers will probably want to use a 0.10uF cap with that pickup or maybe use a different pickup altogether. That pickup used in the '62 AVRI P-Bass lets the sunshine in. It is something else!

Vintage frets like on the AVRI 62 P-bass are GREAT once you get used to them. They are especially smooth for doing slides in that the instrument can be made to sound almost fretless! You don't hear the frets grabbing as your finger slides as much as with larger frets. They also allow for a lower setup with the strings closer to the fretboard. The only downside to vintage frets is that since they are not as tall you don't have as much fret to wear away with highly abrasive strings like stainless roundwounds. With flats fretwear is not really a concern at all and I recommend flats be used exclusively on any bass with vintage style frets. They basically are electric Spanish guitar fretwire.

The neck on the 62 AVRI P-Bass does have a smaller radius, the vintage radius of 7.25" with the "C" width. The neck isn't thinner at all but rather thicker or taller in the middle with more curve to it. This radius is actually preferred by many players and part of the reason for the popularity and desirability of vintage Fender basses.


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:25 am
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brotherdave wrote:
I play finger style almost exclusively. Upper mid tones are the ones that cuts through and projects. For maximum cut through I prefer a first generation style single coil P-Bass pickups. As I stated the 68 Telecaster Bass ones are probably the best cut through P-bass pickups Fender ever made. That is because they have such hot upper mids and usually they are on maple boarded basses which makes them bark more. The problem with any single coil pickup is that they are are not as immune to RFI as split coil pickups. In some environments there is too much RFI for a single coil to be usable. You can minimize the RFI by copper tape shielding to ground, but even that does not make them as immune as a split coil 2nd generation P-Bass pickup. That is why there was a second generation with split coil pickups.

The split coil pickup Fender uses in the AVRI 62 P-Bass has the most upper mids of any Fender made split coil P-Bass pickup I've tried and thus is the best cut through 2nd generation Fender design I've used. I think this pickup, called today The Fender Original Precision Bass Pickup (Fender part# 0992046000) is a super upgrade for finger style players that want their tone control to actually do something, especially with a 0.05uF capacitor. Paired with a 0.05uF cap you have a very bright combo, one so bright that it is probably not a good combination for pick users. Pickers will probably want to use a 0.10uF cap with that pickup or maybe use a different pickup altogether. That pickup used in the '62 AVRI P-Bass lets the sunshine in. It is something else!

Vintage frets like on the AVRI 62 P-bass are GREAT once you get used to them. They are especially smooth for doing slides in that the instrument can be made to sound almost fretless! You don't hear the frets grabbing as your finger slides as much as with larger frets. They also allow for a lower setup with the strings closer to the fretboard. The only downside to vintage frets is that since they are not as tall you don't have as much fret to wear away with highly abrasive strings like stainless roundwounds. With flats fretwear is not really a concern at all and I recommend flats be used exclusively on any bass with vintage style frets. They basically are electric Spanish guitar fretwire.

The neck on the 62 AVRI P-Bass does have a smaller radius, the vintage radius of 7.25" with the "C" width. The neck isn't thinner at all but rather thicker or taller in the middle with more curve to it. This radius is actually preferred by many players and part of the reason for the popularity and desirability of vintage Fender basses.


I've actually got 2 of the 'Original Precision bass" pickups in 2 basses at home - only 1 of them is installed in a bass, a '98 MIM precision. But even on that MIM Fender, I noticed a fairly significant change in sound - not so much with the tone tolled back (probably due to the .10uF cap), but it really barks when you open up the tone. I find it to be very aggressive and mid-rangey. Having said that, the other pickup (I have 2 of them) isn't even installed in anything, I could easily do a swap and see if I like the change. As a side note - I had a Seymour Duncan pickup ('hot' p-bass" I think it's called - basically a really overwound/high output p-bass pickup) in my '04 AS the past 2 years or so. I recently put the original pickup back in and I prefer it.

Regarding necks, '62 vs current Am Std - I really like the idea of a smaller radius. Feels good. But I also don't a wider neck, across the fretboard. I really enjoy the neck on my 04 Am Std, nice round profile, big enough to really grip but it doesn't feel "fat". The only thing I think I'd change about it is the radius - I like the 9.5 (i think it's 9.5..?) but I might prefer something a little smaller if it was available on the same size neck. But that was the main reason I ordered an AS over the AVRI - the wider neck, albeit thinner front to back, on the AVRI is something I'm not so sure I could learn to love. And I do like the modern frets, I just find they have a meatier feel to them.

Like I mentioned in another post, I'm primarily a pick player and I really like to dig in, so to speak. I'm thinking I'll be satisfied with another Am Std, and I'm thinking the subtle changes will be enough for it not to feel like the "same bass". Plus, I really wanted Olympic white anyway, lol.

The AVRI seems to have a vintage charm to it.. even when comparing photos of the two, virtually the same color (olympic white, in my case) with the same pickguard, the AVRI gives off a certain vibe. Maybe it's the darker tint on the headstock?

Does anyone know if the Olympic white on each model is shaded differently (aside from nitrocellulose vs polyurethane)? I can't see it being like sunburst, where you might naturally see variations. Maybe it's the tort 'guard? What are the chances they would produce two different tortoise pickguards for the 2 models (aside from the different cut away for truss rod access in the AS 'guard)?


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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:32 pm
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jasonthefox wrote:
Like I mentioned in another post, I'm primarily a pick player and I really like to dig in, so to speak. I'm thinking I'll be satisfied with another Am Std, and I'm thinking the subtle changes will be enough for it not to feel like the "same bass". Plus, I really wanted Olympic white anyway, lol.

I know it's kind of late in the game, but as a pick player have you ever played a Rickenbacker 4001 or 4003? I split my time between pick and fingers, and my favorite bass to play with pick is definitely Ric. I've got both a '76 4001 and an early 2000's 4003, and they can take whatever I give them! I'm pretty aggressive when I play with a pick - trying to ease off and play more gentle with fingers.

Sorry to sidetrack - looking forward to your report on the new bass! I'm sure you'll be able to wrestle it into submission! P-Bass with a pick is my second favorite! 8)

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Post subject: Re: 100 posts on this but no concrete answer!
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:55 pm
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hieronymous wrote:
I know it's kind of late in the game, but as a pick player have you ever played a Rickenbacker 4001 or 4003? I split my time between pick and fingers, and my favorite bass to play with pick is definitely Ric. I've got both a '76 4001 and an early 2000's 4003, and they can take whatever I give them! I'm pretty aggressive when I play with a pick - trying to ease off and play more gentle with fingers.

Sorry to sidetrack - looking forward to your report on the new bass! I'm sure you'll be able to wrestle it into submission! P-Bass with a pick is my second favorite! 8)



Would LOVE to get a Ric one of these days. Closest I have come to owning one was a few years ago I had a fairly accurate clone, made sometime in the early 80s I believe. Basically modeled after a fireglo 4001. I think it was made by Ibanez, but can't confirm. All maple contruction, neck-thru body. Similar pickups but I don't know how close they were to the real thing. Tone-wise, it definitely had some clank and snap to it, but I remember thinking it had a very low output. But I've often wondered how close it really was, feel and tone-wise, to a real Ric.

I think my issue with Rickenbackers is I go through phases where I obbess over them and then forget about them and decide I don't need one after all, lol. Also, no one in my in my area is an authorised Rickenbacker dealer. It's tough to even find one to play and feel out, let alone buy one.


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