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Post subject: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:33 am
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Hey all,


I've been pretty dedicated to my 51RI P which I have had strung with flats for years now. I've always kept a split coil strung with rounds as a back up for gigs in crappy venues and cold practice spaces. However, my latest band is taking a turn back toward a harder sound I find myself not using my 51, at all. Which really bums me out. I've used it before in an alt rock band with rounds and a pick, but found even then all the things I love about the bass to not really translate well into harder edged music.

So I'm at a crossroads. This band is on the cusp of generating a decent dependable monetary stream. My back up split coil is a decent instrument but nothing I like gigging with. It doesn't have the tone or neck I chase in a bass used for harder music. (it's got the pups and tone circuit from a US 62RI and an MIJ 62 RI neck) The 62RI neck has the radius I like but I'm not a fan of the 1.75" width neck. The 62RI pups are sweet for sure, but almost too sweet. Too fat and round. Even with the highs rolled back in. I'm looking for a sound closer to my old 78 Precision.

Of course, as it always seems to be right now I really don't have the cash to swap out my stable for a couple of decently made Fender split coils without trading or selling my 51RI. Given that most of my playing is relegated to the types of things I played in my punk days (just a little slower and I get to throw in some cool transitions here and there) I was thinking my best bets would be the Antigua FSR and the 70's RI P. While I hate the thought of going to Medium Jumbo Frets, and the modern radius at least I'd still have the 1.625" neck width. However, this would be tough to swing and would definitely require the sale or trade of my current basses.

I'm not really happy about this, but I'm at the point where I have to do "something". I'm not happy with my back up split coil as my number 1, and the 51RI can't really give me what I'm looking for without mods which would kill everything I love about it.

So, my only other thought was trying to pick up a used Sting P bass on the cheap and start modding it. While still keeping my beloved 51RI P as is. Trying to find a way to get that SCPB tone, but with a more aggressive edge. So my questions are this to the experienced SCPB guys here...

First, are the following mods advisable, or compatible (in terms of the bridge). Second, will they give me the result I'm seeking.

SD Single Coil P 1/4lb. pick up
Bad $@! III bridge.

Is there something I'm missing? Most of you guys have more gigging experience then me, and more time in the business. I've been around the block more then a few times, but I'm really looking for some sage advice here. Have you ever faced this problem? How did you handle it, and is there anything you wish you had done differently?

Sorry for being so long winded and thanks for any insights you can give.

Thanks,

D

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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:40 pm
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Just my opinions, take them for what they're worth.

I wouldn't change the bridge.


Try playing with one of these.

http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansa ... iverp.html


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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:40 pm
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Well power or drive isn't really the issue. With the two saddle bridge you lose more sustain then the 4 saddle. I could always turn up, or add more gain. My rig is well more then adequate in terms of power, but volume and drive aren't always the answer. At least in my experience. Maybe I've already answered my own question. While the 51 and Sting are the only basses that come with the necks I prefer. The reality is that even a 1/4lb SCPB pup isn't going to cut like a split coil would. It'll likely be just a smooth growly monster instead of having a smooth soft tone.

Just a shame when responsibility trumps having all the basses we'd like. :(

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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:07 pm
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Sounds like you are REALLY picky about the neck.

I think the Seymour Duncan SCPB3 (commonly referred to as the Single Coil Quarter-Pounder or Tele Quarter-Pounder) coupled with a 0.05 Ceramic Disc Capacitor and roundwounds will give you a very hot, bright and edgy sound that is far more aggressive than even the '62 RI electronics. I have a 62 setup also so I can A/B them.

I had a SCPB3 with ceramic disc cap setup on my number 1 with Thomastik Power Bass rounds for a while before going to a Vitamin-Q cap instead as the ceramic disc edge was very obvious with that pickup. The SCPB3 & vintage ceramic disc cap with roundwounds is possibly the most potent hard rocking trio I've ever found.

I agree not to mod the existing 51 RI since you personally like it as is and that looking for a used Sting or another 51 RI to hack up might be a better idea.

Another thought. Have you considered a used Squier 50's classic vibe model? That Squier version actually sounds pretty aggressive stock and perhaps with a cap swap alone would get you much closer than you expect. Don't know how you'd like the neck though. And it has modern frets too. However it does accept the same mods as a '51 RI except the bridge is different as it is top loading.

The only Leo Quan bridge I know that works with the 51 RI or Sting is the BAIII and those have been discontinued for a long while. The stock Fender Gotoh made bridges work fine. I sort of wish I hadn't put the BAIII on my 51 RI. The Squier 50's CV will accept a BAII bridge if you do decide you need more sustain, but a new bridge would probably be the last thing I'd do until I had dialed in the tone I wanted.

I do not think a Leo Quan bridge really makes all that much difference except in sustain where it helps some. It does not make the sound more aggressive or edgy though as you get roughly the same tone, only for longer.

I think a sub-one-dollar ceramic disc tone cap might be part of the key here along with roundwounds of your choice and the Duncan SCPB3. The current production ceramic discs sound different to me than the larger vintage ones that were about the size of a dime. Such as these: http://www.shop.axegrinderz.com/NOS-Ceramic-Tone-Capacitors-CerGen.htm

The AV 62 RI pickup is notably brighter than most other split coils from Fender in my experience but it is not as bright as the SCPB3. If you are looking for a tone like that 62 pickup in the FSR Antigua P-bass you probably will be disappointed without a pickup change.

The only downside to the SCPB3 is that it is a true single coil and as such is susceptible to RFI which you can copper shield out to a large extent.


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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:40 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Sounds like you are REALLY picky about the neck.

I think the Seymour Duncan SCPB3 (commonly referred to as the Single Coil Quarter-Pounder or Tele Quarter-Pounder) coupled with a 0.05 Ceramic Disc Capacitor and roundwounds will give you a very hot, bright and edgy sound that is far more aggressive than even the '62 RI electronics. I have a 62 setup also so I can A/B them.

I had a SCPB3 with ceramic disc cap setup on my number 1 with Thomastik Power Bass rounds for a while before going to a Vitamin-Q cap instead as the ceramic disc edge was very obvious with that pickup. The SCPB3 & vintage ceramic disc cap with roundwounds is possibly the most potent hard rocking trio I've ever found.

I agree not to mod the existing 51 RI since you personally like it as is and that looking for a used Sting or another 51 RI to hack up might be a better idea.

Another thought. Have you considered a used Squier 50's classic vibe model? That Squier version actually sounds pretty aggressive stock and perhaps with a cap swap alone would get you much closer than you expect. Don't know how you'd like the neck though. And it has modern frets too. However it does accept the same mods as a '51 RI except the bridge is different as it is top loading.

The only Leo Quan bridge I know that works with the 51 RI or Sting is the BAIII and those have been discontinued for a long while. The stock Fender Gotoh made bridges work fine. I sort of wish I hadn't put the BAIII on my 51 RI. The Squier 50's CV will accept a BAII bridge if you do decide you need more sustain, but a new bridge would probably be the last thing I'd do until I had dialed in the tone I wanted.

I do not think a Leo Quan bridge really makes all that much difference except in sustain where it helps some. It does not make the sound more aggressive or edgy though as you get roughly the same tone, only for longer.

I think a sub-one-dollar ceramic disc tone cap might be part of the key here along with roundwounds of your choice and the Duncan SCPB3. The current production ceramic discs sound different to me than the larger vintage ones that were about the size of a dime. Such as these: http://www.shop.axegrinderz.com/NOS-Ceramic-Tone-Capacitors-CerGen.htm

The AV 62 RI pickup is notably brighter than most other split coils from Fender in my experience but it is not as bright as the SCPB3. If you are looking for a tone like that 62 pickup in the FSR Antigua P-bass you probably will be disappointed without a pickup change.

The only downside to the SCPB3 is that it is a true single coil and as such is susceptible to RFI which you can copper shield out to a large extent.



Thanks Dave. That's exactly what I was looking for. Sounds like a used Sting and a pup and cap swap might do the trick and give me a nice aggressive tone and still give me the neck I love. Unfortunately no squiers come with vintage radius necks, then again neither do half the Fender "classic" offerings anymore. :? So since I'd be getting the same neck as on any other modern P I'd be hesitant to dump a ton of money into one. I figure the 70's and FSR basses would be a compromise on radius but still give me the B width and a quality bass. The Sting would allow me to keep my 51 in "reserve" and it's a nice enough piece that I wouldn't mind dumping money into mods. I'll keep you guys posted on how I decide to go. If I can track down a cheap Sting that will likely be how I go.

Thanks again, Dave!

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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:51 pm
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I did the mod thing to my Sting. Quarter lb Duncan, cap and new bridge, etc..... It really didn't do anything for it. That was just one bass though. It still sounds (my Sting) like what you describe as not being what you were after. I am a dyed in the wool for life USA Fender P and J guy but I'll tell you- my Roadworn P bass with old Dimarzios kills it for me. I have a 72 Jazz and a 74 P which are great but The RW gives me the honk so I don't need to take the old basses out. I know everyone has some kind of thing against the Roadworn basses but hey- what the hay? Mine kicks for any kind of punk or whatever. I use really nice amps too. GK- Ampeg- SWR- Epifani- Bag End- Hartke, all with multiple spkrs. So it 's not like I'm coming to my conclusions about the sound of my basses via an average or lower end amp. Just sayin".....Have you tried Rotosounds?


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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:08 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
I did the mod thing to my Sting. Quarter lb Duncan, cap and new bridge, etc..... It really didn't do anything for it. That was just one bass though. It still sounds (my Sting) like what you describe as not being what you were after. I am a dyed in the wool for life USA Fender P and J guy but I'll tell you- my Roadworn P bass with old Dimarzios kills it for me. I have a 72 Jazz and a 74 P which are great but The RW gives me the honk so I don't need to take the old basses out. I know everyone has some kind of thing against the Roadworn basses but hey- what the hay? Mine kicks for any kind of punk or whatever. I use really nice amps too. GK- Ampeg- SWR- Epifani- Bag End- Hartke, all with multiple spkrs. So it 's not like I'm coming to my conclusions about the sound of my basses via an average or lower end amp. Just sayin".....Have you tried Rotosounds?


Actually I love the Roadworn basses. However, the 50's P has the same specs as my 62RI CIJ P neck. Which is part of what I don't love about it. I love the radius, but for playing fast up and down the neck instead of across (which I seem to do a lot in harder rock as opposed to more mellow music) the C width neck bothers me. The early 50's and late 70's B width I find to be the ideal necks with the vintage radius.

The 51 and Sting have good accurate necks, unfortunately Fender no longer sells a correct late 70's RI (b width and vintage radius). They only come with the B width and a modern radius. (no idea why. It seems silly to accurately reproduce some models and not others.)

I would never knock the Roadworn basses. Some of the best Fender offers out there. Of all the current Fender split coil offerings the Roadworn and Classic 50's Ps are the best basses for the money. Really hard to go wrong with one. If I was still playing more classic and mellow rock then I would love one. Then again, if that was the case I'd still be playing my 51RI. :?


As far as tone I believe the 50's Roadworn uses the same or similar pup to the 70's P. I' sure both would do the job really well. I tried an "Aerican Special" P bass. I found it not to be very special. Sad. It's a decent price point for an American made P. It just seemed to have no "oomph". :(

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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:26 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
I did the mod thing to my Sting. Quarter lb Duncan, cap and new bridge, etc..... It really didn't do anything for it. That was just one bass though. It still sounds (my Sting) like what you describe as not being what you were after. I am a dyed in the wool for life USA Fender P and J guy but I'll tell you- my Roadworn P bass with old Dimarzios kills it for me. I have a 72 Jazz and a 74 P which are great but The RW gives me the honk so I don't need to take the old basses out. I know everyone has some kind of thing against the Roadworn basses but hey- what the hay? Mine kicks for any kind of punk or whatever. I use really nice amps too. GK- Ampeg- SWR- Epifani- Bag End- Hartke, all with multiple spkrs. So it 's not like I'm coming to my conclusions about the sound of my basses via an average or lower end amp. Just sayin".....Have you tried Rotosounds?


Interesting Stoker. What cap did you use?


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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:42 pm
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Uh oh--- well..... just one of the green Radio Shark ones-- it's a 4.7 or a 22 - I don't remember right off hand. I know... I'm going to have to get a boatload of those ones you talk about.


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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:45 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
stroker vance wrote:
I did the mod thing to my Sting. Quarter lb Duncan, cap and new bridge, etc..... It really didn't do anything for it. That was just one bass though. It still sounds (my Sting) like what you describe as not being what you were after. I am a dyed in the wool for life USA Fender P and J guy but I'll tell you- my Roadworn P bass with old Dimarzios kills it for me. I have a 72 Jazz and a 74 P which are great but The RW gives me the honk so I don't need to take the old basses out. I know everyone has some kind of thing against the Roadworn basses but hey- what the hay? Mine kicks for any kind of punk or whatever. I use really nice amps too. GK- Ampeg- SWR- Epifani- Bag End- Hartke, all with multiple spkrs. So it 's not like I'm coming to my conclusions about the sound of my basses via an average or lower end amp. Just sayin".....Have you tried Rotosounds?


Actually I love the Roadworn basses. However, the 50's P has the same specs as my 62RI CIJ P neck. Which is part of what I don't love about it. I love the radius, but for playing fast up and down the neck instead of across (which I seem to do a lot in harder rock as opposed to more mellow music) the C width neck bothers me. The early 50's and late 70's B width I find to be the ideal necks with the vintage radius.

The 51 and Sting have good accurate necks, unfortunately Fender no longer sells a correct late 70's RI (b width and vintage radius). They only come with the B width and a modern radius. (no idea why. It seems silly to accurately reproduce some models and not others.)

I would never knock the Roadworn basses. Some of the best Fender offers out there. Of all the current Fender split coil offerings the Roadworn and Classic 50's Ps are the best basses for the money. Really hard to go wrong with one. If I was still playing more classic and mellow rock then I would love one. Then again, if that was the case I'd still be playing my 51RI. :?


As far as tone I believe the 50's Roadworn uses the same or similar pup to the 70's P. I' sure both would do the job really well. I tried an "Aerican Special" P bass. I found it not to be very special. Sad. It's a decent price point for an American made P. It just seemed to have no "oomph". :(


I agree the Classic 50's and the Roadworn are good- I have both those-- My Classic 50's is blonde "kind of" see thru but not quite. The RW is SB


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Post subject: Re: SCPB considerations (could use some experienced input)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:34 pm
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Stoker those are Poly "Chicklet" caps very similar to what Fender's Asian OEM builders use and actually close to what Fender USA used for a while. They recently went back to a new ceramic they contracted out. It is not the same as the vintage ones. I've already compared them.


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