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Post subject: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:24 pm
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So I just rented my first pbass a 2009 Mia and I love the sound but not the colour so I picked up a 2012 sunburst but for some reason I find the sound thinner. Are. My ears playing tricks on me?


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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:49 pm
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voorhees73 wrote:
So I just rented my first pbass a 2009 Mia and I love the sound but not the colour so I picked up a 2012 sunburst but for some reason I find the sound thinner. Are. My ears playing tricks on me?



What series are they? Are they both American Standards, or is one a HWY1 or American Special? It matters as the new American Standards should actually sound thicker as they now have the 62Ri pup and no awful S-1 switch like the ones from a few years back.

However, if the newer model is an "American Special" (basically a rebranded HWY1), the thinness you are likely hearing is due to the greasebucket tone circuit which rolls off highs without adding in lows. Basically when you turn your tone knob down (cutting highs) the lows don't become more prominent in the mix.

To someone used to playing a traditional split coil P the bass will lack punch and thickness. It's a nice mod, but one that I don't think appeals to fans of the vintage P tone very much.

Hope that helped. :?

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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:00 pm
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There both American standards but in fairness I haven't used the 2012 in a band
setting yet.


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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:08 pm
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yeah, that's really weird. They say the new Standard has a CS 62 pup in it. It should definitely have more "oomph". Odd. Good luck and keep us posted. The only other thing I could think of is strings. Maybe it just needs better strings?

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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:47 pm
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Here are a couple of my guesses why the 2012 sounds "thin" to you when compared to the 2009.

First, you can have two identical looking 2009's (or any year) side by side and one of them will sound and play better to you through the same amp. This is due to a number of variable factors including body wood, neck wood, capacitor tolerance factors, setup, inherent neck action, etc. Usually tonal variations are minor, but when comparing side by side a player with a good ear will sometimes hear a difference, especially in how the rotation position of the tone control (treble rolloff) impacts tone. Still any difference is subtle.

Second, Fender changed the pickup in the American Standard for 2012. Previous to 2012 it had what was called the "American Standard Pickup." The 2012 has a "Fender Custom Shop 60's Pickup." 60's Precision pickups were notably brighter compared to the American Standard Precision pickup that was used prior to the 2012 upgrade in the American Standard P-Bass. So bright in fact that in the early 60's Fender used a 0.10uF capacitor instead of the usual Precision Bass value of 0.05uF. This higher cap value moderated the inherent brightness somewhat. I've not seen the service diagram for the 2012 P-Bass and it isn't online yet so I don't know what capacitor is stock on the 2012 model, but would like to know if anyone has that info. I'm suspecting it might be a 0.10.

So long as the same amp and same amp settings were used in comparing the two instruments, most of the tonal difference is probably due to the different pickups used on the two models. Through amp EQ you should be able to make the 2009 and the 2012 sound nearly identical but the pickup used in the 2012 model should have more brightness to it when all tone controls are set flat. The extra brightness (almost sparkly when you crank the treble and upper mids) makes it better for solos or cutting through a power chord heavy guitar mix and more suitable for use in a wider variety of recording and performing situations. It also makes it more adaptive to a wider variety of playing styles. In my experience I can always EQ the extra highs out and boost the lows some, but I can't add highs or upper mids that aren't there in the first place, which is why I use a mass production Fender Original P-Bass pickup, based on the early 60's pickup, in one of my Precisions. I usually favor a single-coil P-Bass tone, but this is the one Fender split-coil I've used that I actually like. I use the traditional cap value of 0.05uF which makes it sound even brighter than it does in the current production American Vintage 62 Reissue P-Bass that comes with the 0.10uF cap in it. I'd rather have the brighter pickup myself, but your opinion is what counts with you though. So if you prefer the bass heavy pickup on the 2009 model just try to stick to US models between about 1972 and 2011.


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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:52 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Here are a couple of my guesses why the 2012 sounds "thin" to you when compared to the 2009.

First, you can have two identical looking 2009's (or any year) side by side and one of them will sound and play better to you through the same amp. This is due to a number of variable factors including body wood, neck wood, capacitor tolerance factors, setup, inherent neck action, etc. Usually tonal variations are minor, but when comparing side by side a player with a good ear will sometimes hear a difference, especially in how the rotation position of the tone control (treble rolloff) impacts tone. Still any difference is subtle.

Second, Fender changed the pickup in the American Standard for 2012. Previous to 2012 it had what was called the "American Standard Pickup." The 2012 has a "Fender Custom Shop 60's Pickup." 60's Precision pickups were notably brighter compared to the American Standard Precision pickup that was used prior to the 2012 upgrade in the American Standard P-Bass. So bright in fact that in the early 60's Fender used a 0.10uF capacitor instead of the usual Precision Bass value of 0.05uF. This higher cap value moderated the inherent brightness somewhat. I've not seen the service diagram for the 2012 P-Bass and it isn't online yet so I don't know what capacitor is stock on the 2012 model, but would like to know if anyone has that info. I'm suspecting it might be a 0.10.

So long as the same amp and same amp settings were used in comparing the two instruments, most of the tonal difference is probably due to the different pickups used on the two models. Through amp EQ you should be able to make the 2009 and the 2012 sound nearly identical but the pickup used in the 2012 model should have more brightness to it when all tone controls are set flat. The extra brightness (almost sparkly when you crank the treble and upper mids) makes it better for solos or cutting through a power chord heavy guitar mix and more suitable for use in a wider variety of recording and performing situations. It also makes it more adaptive to a wider variety of playing styles. In my experience I can always EQ the extra highs out and boost the lows some, but I can't add highs or upper mids that aren't there in the first place, which is why I use a mass production Fender Original P-Bass pickup, based on the early 60's pickup, in one of my Precisions. I usually favor a single-coil P-Bass tone, but this is the one Fender split-coil I've used that I actually like. I use the traditional cap value of 0.05uF which makes it sound even brighter than it does in the current production American Vintage 62 Reissue P-Bass that comes with the 0.10uF cap in it. I'd rather have the brighter pickup myself, but your opinion is what counts with you though. So if you prefer the bass heavy pickup on the 2009 model just try to stick to US models between about 1972 and 2011.



Great call Dave. I didn't even think the cap might be at play. Interesting that they used the old pup which usually sounds thicker and more punchy, but kept the modern circuit.

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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:11 pm
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The older pickups are wider range, not necessarily inherently thicker. They do produce lows, but also an abundance of upper mids and twinkly high tones usually associated with a Jazz or single coil P-Bass. We often think of them as thicker sounding because of the amps and cabs most often used with them back then and because of the recording techniques developed then some of which are still in use. None of these cabs had horns or tweeters. Mostly they had 1 or 2 15 inch speakers. When you plug an instrument with one of the early 60's spec pickups into a modern amp with a modern 2 or 3 way cab, or record it direct, then the brighter character of the pickup really stands out. Usually in recording back in the 60's they heavily compressed the bass which further cut the highs even when recording direct. Hence we all have this image of a thick lush tone living in an early 60's P-Bass pickup, but actually they have a shocking tonal palate when used with a modern amp and cab that was a revelation to me. You can always take the brightness out, but you can't add it where it didn't exist before and that was the main reason I wasn't exactly a fan of the American Standard pickup and why Fender sold so many of the Fender Original Vintage pickups.


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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:17 pm
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That must be the reason. I still play through 2 15's. :/ My parts P bass uses the AVS 62RI pups and tone circuit and it definitely gives a nice wide range as you suggest through my rig. ( I use a hybrid SWR 550x for a head) It's definitely got plenty of thick low end punch, even with the highs rolled all the way in. Conversely my old 78 P had a much "colder" tone. It actually had more output, but had a much more percussive tone and wasn't as warm. It never ceases to amaze me how things like body woods, neck and board woods, pups, caps, wiring, amps and strings all go into the unique and beautiful sounds of the different eras of P basses. This is a perfect example. Great info as always.

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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:35 pm
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Here are a couple of my guesses why the 2012 sounds "thin" to you when compared to the 2009.

First, you can have two identical looking 2009's (or any year) side by side and one of them will sound and play better to you through the same amp. This is due to a number of variable factors including body wood, neck wood, capacitor tolerance factors, setup, inherent neck action, etc. Usually tonal variations are minor, but when comparing side by side a player with a good ear will sometimes hear a difference, especially in how the rotation position of the tone control (treble rolloff) impacts tone. Still any difference is subtle.

Second, Fender changed the pickup in the American Standard for 2012. Previous to 2012 it had what was called the "American Standard Pickup." The 2012 has a "Fender Custom Shop 60's Pickup." 60's Precision pickups were notably brighter compared to the American Standard Precision pickup that was used prior to the 2012 upgrade in the American Standard P-Bass. So bright in fact that in the early 60's Fender used a 0.10uF capacitor instead of the usual Precision Bass value of 0.05uF. This higher cap value moderated the inherent brightness somewhat. I've not seen the service diagram for the 2012 P-Bass and it isn't online yet so I don't know what capacitor is stock on the 2012 model, but would like to know if anyone has that info. I'm suspecting it might be a 0.10.

So long as the same amp and same amp settings were used in comparing the two instruments, most of the tonal difference is probably due to the different pickups used on the two models. Through amp EQ you should be able to make the 2009 and the 2012 sound nearly identical but the pickup used in the 2012 model should have more brightness to it when all tone controls are set flat. The extra brightness (almost sparkly when you crank the treble and upper mids) makes it better for solos or cutting through a power chord heavy guitar mix and more suitable for use in a wider variety of recording and performing situations. It also makes it more adaptive to a wider variety of playing styles. In my experience I can always EQ the extra highs out and boost the lows some, but I can't add highs or upper mids that aren't there in the first place, which is why I use a mass production Fender Original P-Bass pickup, based on the early 60's pickup, in one of my Precisions. I usually favor a single-coil P-Bass tone, but this is the one Fender split-coil I've used that I actually like. I use the traditional cap value of 0.05uF which makes it sound even brighter than it does in the current production American Vintage 62 Reissue P-Bass that comes with the 0.10uF cap in it. I'd rather have the brighter pickup myself, but your opinion is what counts with you though. So if you prefer the bass heavy pickup on the 2009 model just try to stick to US models between about 1972 and 2011.

Thanks for the info.


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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:38 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
That must be the reason. I still play through 2 15's. :/ My parts P bass uses the AVS 62RI pups and tone circuit and it definitely gives a nice wide range as you suggest through my rig. ( I use a hybrid SWR 550x for a head) It's definitely got plenty of thick low end punch, even with the highs rolled all the way in. Conversely my old 78 P had a much "colder" tone. It actually had more output, but had a much more percussive tone and wasn't as warm. It never ceases to amaze me how things like body woods, neck and board woods, pups, caps, wiring, amps and strings all go into the unique and beautiful sounds of the different eras of P basses. This is a perfect example. Great info as always.



With a 0.10uF cap the 60's spec pickup would not seem quite as bright as with the 0.05uF that I use with it. A great pickup either way for sure but I love that 60's spec Fender Original Vintage Precision Bass pickup and 0.05 cap combination for finger style play, which to me sounds almost sounds ACTIVE. If I was a pick player I'd probably want the 0.10 cap in it because it is pretty clicky when picked, even with the tone rolled all the way off. I think that is why Leo Fender put the 0.10 in the '62. Setup with a 0.05 it really does have a ton of tone and what seems to me to be higher sensitivity to different playing positions and degrees of attack. This kind of sensitivity to attack is part of what makes the difference between a good instrument and an exceptional instrument from my point of view as a finger style player.


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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:31 am
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brotherdave wrote:
TheKingofPain wrote:
That must be the reason. I still play through 2 15's. :/ My parts P bass uses the AVS 62RI pups and tone circuit and it definitely gives a nice wide range as you suggest through my rig. ( I use a hybrid SWR 550x for a head) It's definitely got plenty of thick low end punch, even with the highs rolled all the way in. Conversely my old 78 P had a much "colder" tone. It actually had more output, but had a much more percussive tone and wasn't as warm. It never ceases to amaze me how things like body woods, neck and board woods, pups, caps, wiring, amps and strings all go into the unique and beautiful sounds of the different eras of P basses. This is a perfect example. Great info as always.



With a 0.10uF cap the 60's spec pickup would not seem quite as bright as with the 0.05uF that I use with it. A great pickup either way for sure but I love that 60's spec Fender Original Vintage Precision Bass pickup and 0.05 cap combination for finger style play, which to me sounds almost sounds ACTIVE. If I was a pick player I'd probably want the 0.10 cap in it because it is pretty clicky when picked, even with the tone rolled all the way off. I think that is why Leo Fender put the 0.10 in the '62. Setup with a 0.05 it really does have a ton of tone and what seems to me to be higher sensitivity to different playing positions and degrees of attack. This kind of sensitivity to attack is part of what makes the difference between a good instrument and an exceptional instrument from my point of view as a finger style player.



Agreed. I enjoy playing my 51Ri fingerstyle. I roll the highs all the way in and it sings no matter where I play on the fretboard. Wether it be at F on the E string or the 12th fret on the G. Though truth be told there's something exceptionally cool about rolling the highs back just a touch and hitting a song on it with a medium celluloid pick on flats. You can nail that Kenny Rogers style click clack tone. Too cool.

With the 62RI parts bass I only roll the highs all the way in when I play fingerstyle. (which now days is 99% of the time) I usually back them off a 1/4 turn if I bust a pick out. The 62 pick up and tone circuit sounds fine playing with a pick, but given how warm and wide range the voicing of the bass it's almost unruly if you're not careful. My dynamics with a pick are nowhere near as good as they used to be. Fingerstyle I can go from a whisper to a scream still, but I honestly just don't get enough exercise with a pick to keep my skills sharp. Where as the 70's P's with their overwound colder pick ups seemed to be able to get that clank and keep it focused.

Being able to utilize dynamics is one thing I greatly miss about running a full tube head. The hybrid head is nice because you still get that warmth and smoothness, but having the tube back end is really a whole different ball game. It almost makes the amp an instrument in itself. Someday I'll be able to get a new Super Bassman. There's just no way my old 100 would have held up against the guitar rigs and drummer I'm playing with now. :?

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Post subject: Re: 2009 vs 2012
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:10 am
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So basically, is the '11-back American standard pickup the same or very similar to a 70s P bass pup?


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