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Post subject: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:00 am
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Hello everyone, I am long time fender fan. My first guitar was a mexican tele, my second a japanese jaguar, my third a japanese mustang, my fourth a mexican jazz bass and my latest purchase is what I believe a 76-79 american fender precision bass. The bass is naturally "relic" it is for the most part natural color but it has some black on the back and one of the sides. I have removed the neck and I couldn't find a date (it is very faded) but it has a hispanic last name which I believe is torres or something like that (I'll have to check again) on the neck and some stamps on the body and body with frr 30 and other numbers...Now my question is this...Correct me is I am wrong (probably are), I read somewhere that fender would refinished their own guitars to meet certain demands, and that is why you see some black worn guitars that have a sunburst finish coming through the second finish, is this true? could that be the case with my bass? I will try to post some pics...Also it is a rosewood neck, most pics I have seen of the natural finish have maple necks...Finally rosewood necks don't have a skunk stripe do they? Thanks in advance for all your help!


Last edited by megamanx on Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:36 am
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Hi and welcome.

In order to further examine your bass in every detail, posting a couple of photos might help a lot.


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:20 am
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Answers:
Fender reportedly did refinish guitars and basses after they were finished in one color to meet demand, but I think this is assumed to be the case when these guitars were actually refinished by their first owners or music stores. It is very hard to verify and I don't see where Fender ever had such a shortage of blank bodies that refinishing would be easier to do than starting with a new body. I may be in the minority on this opinion but I will stick to it.

Rosewood necks usually don't have skunk stripes but some did have skunk stripes around 1978 or 79 when Fender standardized their neck production to all have skunk stripes.
This did not last too long, but I have a rosewood P bass neck with a skunk stripe from about 1979 as I remember.

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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:54 pm
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here some pics, what do you guys think? I know it is in rough shape but I got it for pennies...
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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:50 pm
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Nice- for pennies that is. I wish I never done solt mine.


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:21 pm
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I am no expert, not even a novice. But it doesn't look like a black bass worn down to natural finish to me.

It looks like it was originally a natural or blonde finish that some owner did a weird partial black paint design to. The blobs of black paint on the neck pocket also leads me to think this. Every Fender neck pocket I have ever seen has only overspray and not blobs of paint.

Even so, that's no matter.

How's it play? Thats the inportant thing. If its a great player you could refin in your favorite color. That would be cool.


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:48 pm
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Fullerton factory refinished (and factory repaired) instruments were almost always marked with alpha numeric marks during disassembly. These Fullerton factory applied hidden markings usually are found on the body either under the pickguard or in a pickup cavity on the body and additionally on the flat part of the heel of the neck on the neckplate side. Numbers are usually the last numbers in the instrument's serial number. This way the client got the same neck and body back as they went on different routes in the refinish/repair process before they all wound up reunited at final assembly. Sometimes you see 1 number, other times 2 or 3 or even 4. The hardware and electronics went to final assembly to wait on the wood to arrive. Any refinish without these serial based marks on both the body and neck is probably not a factory refinish, but a factory original finish even if custom color codes are marked.

There were three different factory markings used on instruments returned to Fullerton and also on first time finishes requiring special attention that I know about during both the pre-CBS and CBS era. There may be other marks out there I don't know about too.

The earliest I know about were freehand soldering gun/wood-burning type markings. On bodies these are often seen in the pickup cavity but can also appear on the top of the body hidden under the pickguard. "S" or "SB" for Sunburst with the last numbers of the serial for example. These free hand marks are pre-CBS era marks usually. I'm often suspect of these as they are the easiest to fake but if they are on top of the paint the instrument was obviously not factory refinished, at best it was in for a repair or at worst it is a fake mark.

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The second method used a single punch which required the Fender worker to make multiple hammer/mallet strikes to fashion a single character, sort of in a rivet fashion. These are rarely seen and I think they lie between the pre-CBS wood burning marks and the later dedicated letter impression stamps.

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The third were dedicated letters and numbers that required only one hammer strike per character. Both CAR and C.A. RED marks are often seen on Candy Apple Red ones for example and often the color name appear to have been applied in a single hammer blow since the letter alignment is nearly perfect. These are nearly impossible to fake. I don't know when for sure when they switched from the CAR to C.A. RED code but the gold base coat ones seem to always be marked C.A. Red, so that would be post-65 right?

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If it was only a repair job it would not need a color designation striked of course. If it was a new first run instrument or if disassembly was not required for a minor repair then the neck probably did not get a stamp at all either. If the partial serial isn't impressed then the marks were made during initial production before it was initially serialized.

Additionally some first run custom color bodies, endorsing artist bodies and show (NAMM) instrument bodies were marked in whatever fashion was in use at the time with the additional letters "ES" appearing first in the marking code. Sometimes all alone you might see just "ES" as the only impression marking. I think the correct meaning for "ES" was "Entered Special" (some say "Extra Special" but I'm pretty sure it meant "Entered Special.") Here is an "ES" wood burning mark on a very early pre-CBS Strat in the neck pickup cavity.

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Any instrument claimed to be a factory refinish without impression markings made by wood-burning or by impression stamping on both the body and flat part of the neck heel that includes part of the instrument's serial is doubtfully a factory refinish. It might look like this on the neck heel.

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So far as painting over is concerned, you do see this a lot with custom color instruments. They liked to get custom orders out quickly and often they would just paint over an already finished body, say Fiesta Red being shot over a sunburst. Possibly it was a Sunburst that didn't come out quite right and was set aside waiting for a solid custom color order. That was much faster than starting with bare bodies since it was already primed/sealed. There are "stories" which are undocumented so far as I know about Fender going to nearby dealers to buy finished instruments off the rack so they could refinish them to fill Custom Color orders, but I personally seriously doubt that ever happened and they are just "stories." It doesn't make any sense to me that they would do that as it would be possibly the most inefficient thing to do.

There is one other thing of note in this regard which I believe actually did happen. Selmer was an importer/distributor of Pre-CBS era Fender instruments in Great Britain. Hank Marvin of the Shadows played a '59 Fiesta Red Stratocaster gifted him by the Shadows lead vocalist named Cliff Richard (yes, that Cliff Richard) who managed to get a legitimate custom ordered artist guitar imported into the UK. This one was extra special in that it also had the premium gold plated hardware. Marvin is also said to have gone almost immediately to a nearby hardware store and bought self-adhesive letters like you'd see on a mailbox and applied the stick on letters with his initials "HBM" to the front of it. This could have been SRV's inspiration for his similar practice, who knows? Anyway, the Shadows became wildly popular in the UK and to meet demand for the "Hank Marvin look" Selmer repainted a number of already on-hand Fender Strats Fiesta Red once they had already reached the UK. The sale of stick on letters probably went up too. Of course to get the Fiesta Red cost the customer extra as it was a Custom Color! The number 300 gets thrown around a lot but I think anyone who really knows the actual number of these is either long gone or not talking. It could have been much fewer or perhaps even more. One of these will show up from time to time in Europe and a few found their way to the USA vintage market. They don't have any "ES" or custom color wood burning marks and instead of all being Sunburst underneath, they can have been born in any standard color of the day. This leads me to believe that Selmer could have and probably would have repainted other solid color instruments to meet demand but so far as I know the Fiesta Red Stratocasters were the only ones they for sure are known to have refinished before selling as new. If anyone, especially anyone in the UK, knows anything about this I'd really like to hear about it. I think it is fascinating!

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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:46 pm
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Cool history lesson. I think that mine was just a guy with a spray can who didn't like the natural color. Now is there a way to remove the black without damaging the natural finish? I've done some finishing not refinishing so I have no idea on how to remove paint. I mean it is almost there and the lacquer finish looks good with only some checking.


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:11 pm
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There is no way I know about to remove just that black. Whatever product you use will be pretty much indiscriminate about what it removes. Hopefully no black paint soaked deeply into the wood grain which would mean you could not do the entire thing natural.

Here is an online primer (pardon the refinishing pun there) which includes stripping:
http://reranch.com/101.htm


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:35 pm
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I was affraid of that, I read on the internets that duct tape could be used to strip spray paint. I am going to try that to see if it works.

edit: the duct tape does not work :lol: , for the time being all I am going to to fix it us it is a good cleaning and polish, a new bridge, and a new pickguard. If I have time during the summer I am going to refinish it black...As it stand it plays like butter and it sounds like heaven...


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:27 pm
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That's probably a good plan. Another plan would be to disassemble it and send the bare body to a pro refinisher. Prices vary greatly among the service providers. You can see many refinishing services listed on the REFINISH, RESTORE & MAJOR REPAIR page of my website which you will find when you click the link named REFINISH, RESTORE & MAJOR REPAIR which is on the page in my Fender Forum signature below. One could be nearby or you can ship the body to any of them.


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:17 pm
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Final question to all of you do it yourselfers. Like I said before I have experience finishing but not refinishing. I did a warmoth project about 4 years ago. Now can I skip the striping part of the refinishing process and sand the current "finish," apply the primer and paint, then clear coat? Reranch kind of implies it by saying if the original finish is polyuratane that skipping the stripping is the way to go. The thing is that I don't know what the original finish is. Is the natural poly? The black wouldn't really matter since I want to do it black. Finally, if I had to strip the body do I need to do a grain fil on it? I know certain woods don't need it, but again I don't know what I have here. I'm assuming fender did the grain fill when they originaly manufactured the guitar.


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:57 pm
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For a 1976 Precision Bass, the original finish would be polyurethane all the way through.

I was wondering if the bass was originally done in black and the previous owner had just removed the black in selected areas to show the natural grain and mimic an early Precision bass look. I can't tell how bad the black has been applied, but if you are sure that the bass was originally natural, why nor restore it to a natural finish?

When Fender did a natural finish they usually had a pretty nice body grain to show off, so why don't you take advantage of that and just strip off the black?

But of course its your call- I am just making an inquiry.

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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:33 pm
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Man I just don't know...The more I look at this thing the more doubts I get...Like I said, it looks as it was originally black because at the horns and on the sides the paint looks, really good. In the back it looks scratched and worn, but it could be from years of playing. The natural sections have some checking on them so that leads me to believe it might have been natural at one time, but the butt and some parts of the horns looks almost like bare wood...I think that natural it would look really, really good, but again I am afraid that removing the black might reveal that the wood is already stained on the areas that it is still on...I guess that it can really be observe on the pictures but the natural wood has some surface scratches on them...What to do? What to do? I was thinking refinishing it black because it seems like an easier option, but if I strip the hole thing and the wood looks good I might have to do natural...I just don't have the time to strip the whole thing and I haven't done that before...


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Post subject: Re: 76 P bass Now With Pics
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:09 pm
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By the splashes of color in the neck pocket wondering if it was maybe sunburst originally. Whatever color it was stock it was probably refinished natural from the original then the black was added later. At any rate I have to wonder how those colors got in the neck pocket.


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