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Post subject: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:15 am
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Sting bass-- 2 saddle bridge-- Quarter Pound pickup- set up---intonated as good as I can get it- which is all one can do anyway.

Testing harmonics-- very dull to none-- a couple are okay but overall not good.

I have my ideas on it but would just like others to chime in. Any thoughts?
:D


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:00 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
Sting bass-- 2 saddle bridge-- Quarter Pound pickup- set up---intonated as good as I can get it- which is all one can do anyway.

Testing harmonics-- very dull to none-- a couple are okay but overall not good.

I have my ideas on it but would just like others to chime in. Any thoughts?
:D


Did you try lowering the pickup? I am unclear about whether you are talking about overtones to the fundamental fretted tone or chime type tones while just touching the string at the octave 12th fret?


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:50 pm
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I have owned a couple of the other versions of this bass and every one I played/owned/worked on had a very thin trebly high-end that caused me to change out the pick-ups too a Duncan "HotRail" telecaster guitar pickup.
And even the strings no matter which ones barely altered the high trebely tone,the new pickup helped alot to alieviate overtones or sympathy notes/tones ETC..,I firmly believe they made the bass to sound like this because this is actually how that bass sounded at the time before the up-graded mini humbucker was added which is why the came w/foam mutes, Brilliant!
If its the purposefully played/wanted kind of harmonics you are speaking of then you must know that these basses were'nt intended to be a flashy sounding basses that can do it all,its the very first version of a Fender bass and its sole designs were ease of traveling with and their ability to be amplified,I dont think harmonics were on the top line of the drawing board frankly because they were'nt designed for that,they were more worried with the selling points working correctly,bass solos,slapping,pinch-harmonics,muting and yanking out frets was much closer than anyone of us had originally thought.
So this bass with original design pickups is'nt gonna sound like the newer pickups do,But they still offer a wide range of tones that takes a little bit more coaxing and technique to extract them but believe me they are there John Paul Jones had a 52 ? He used live on stage so that tells me the tones are there you just gotta earn'em.
:mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:59 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
stroker vance wrote:
Sting bass-- 2 saddle bridge-- Quarter Pound pickup- set up---intonated as good as I can get it- which is all one can do anyway.

Testing harmonics-- very dull to none-- a couple are okay but overall not good.

I have my ideas on it but would just like others to chime in. Any thoughts?
:D


Did you try lowering the pickup? I am unclear about whether you are talking about overtones to the fundamental fretted tone or chime type tones while just touching the string at the octave 12th fret?



Pickup is lowered so I don't think it's pulling on the strings enough to cancel the chime type harmonic tones-- the ones where you touch the string over the frets and pluck and it gives you the harmonic note-- like Jaco" Portrait of Tracy"


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:11 pm
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lawsuitbass wrote:
I have owned a couple of the other versions of this bass and every one I played/owned/worked on had a very thin trebly high-end that caused me to change out the pick-ups too a Duncan "HotRail" telecaster guitar pickup.
And even the strings no matter which ones barely altered the high trebely tone,the new pickup helped alot to alieviate overtones or sympathy notes/tones ETC..,I firmly believe they made the bass to sound like this because this is actually how that bass sounded at the time before the up-graded mini humbucker was added which is why the came w/foam mutes, Brilliant!
If its the purposefully played/wanted kind of harmonics you are speaking of then you must know that these basses were'nt intended to be a flashy sounding basses that can do it all,its the very first version of a Fender bass and its sole designs were ease of traveling with and their ability to be amplified,I dont think harmonics were on the top line of the drawing board frankly because they were'nt designed for that,they were more worried with the selling points working correctly,bass solos,slapping,pinch-harmonics,muting and yanking out frets was much closer than anyone of us had originally thought.
So this bass with original design pickups is'nt gonna sound like the newer pickups do,But they still offer a wide range of tones that takes a little bit more coaxing and technique to extract them but believe me they are there John Paul Jones had a 52 ? He used live on stage so that tells me the tones are there you just gotta earn'em.
:mrgreen:


I was thinking in terms of the intonation not being exact-- I was thinking about mounting a different bridge on it so that the intonation can bet set exact( whatever that is in all reality) and thus bringing the saddles in range of being able to get the harmonic chimes. This makes me believe that if the bridge enables the bass to intonate properly then the chimes will tell me the bass is operating right and it will sound better due to ringing out better on fretted notes. Now it could be that you are right and the thing won't have the performance I want-- that's my whole reason for the topic to go over the ideas and figure it up. You and B Dave are a good help. I expected you guys would be interested in it.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:04 pm
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Here's my bridge experience with these Japanese body through strung first-generation . Stock setup with the two saddle bridge was amazingly good. As soon as I changed strings to flats it took a while but I got REALLY close again, at least to the 12th fret anyway. So wanting to make it PERFECT I bought a Fender USA Deluxe bridge, which was the four saddle/three screw bridge on the USA Deluxe models before the model upgrade last year and installed that. I could not get it to intonate correctly as the saddle travel on the Deluxe bridge was too short. Next I try huge fat flats instead of mediums, no dice on the intonation but love their sound so left them on.

Next I get a now obsolete Leo Quan BAIII bridge which is a drop in replacement with about 2.5 times the saddle travel of the Fender Deluxe Bridge. Voila! Intonated dead on.

Fender USA Deluxe Bridge, $69.99
Obsolete Leo Quan BAIII $139.00
Fatter Flats $38.00
Intonation to the 20th fret? Priceless!

(I did sell the USA Deluxe Bridge to MJBass cause she needed some parts off of it for her USA Deluxe but I think I still lost money on the bridge. I also installed a Lindy Fralin split-coil pickup, a Sprague Vitamin-Q PIO cap and a custom pickguard...so altogether I think I've got....wait I don't wanna think what I've got in it.)

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I THINK IT LOOKS AMAZINGLY TACKY! In a pukey neo-industrial Dollar Beer Night kind of way. But it sounds like thunder and seriously I think I could blow girls clothes off with it.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:46 pm
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stroker vance wrote:
Pickup is lowered so I don't think it's pulling on the strings enough to cancel the chime type harmonic tones-- the ones where you touch the string over the frets and pluck and it gives you the harmonic note-- like Jaco" Portrait of Tracy"


you are talking about flageolets, well, they are a general sign of wood- and craftsmanship-quality. the more, the better... means that on high end gear you can get flageolets on almost any fret (depending on strings age, more or less), poor wood- and/or assembling-quality do choke tone and overtone of the axe, the allover signal becomes weak and muddy.
as lsb mentioned, those basses were made as first to be amplified... later leo improved them with better pup's, more versatile bridge and the bigger headstock.
during my bass years i played and tested some but never found one with adequate performance, too ploppy and fast dying sound and no real cut-through in the band sound... it's rather a thing for lovers!!! :wink:
a little add: the way sting uses his, underlining his voice and the songs goes well with it, things like john entwistle did demanded a more sophisticated axe... perhaps the reason why later he went on alembic and warwick basses.
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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:29 am
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brotherdave wrote:
Here's my bridge experience with these Japanese body through strung first-generation . Stock setup with the two saddle bridge was amazingly good. As soon as I changed strings to flats it took a while but I got REALLY close again, at least to the 12th fret anyway. So wanting to make it PERFECT I bought a Fender USA Deluxe bridge, which was the four saddle/three screw bridge on the USA Deluxe models before the model upgrade last year and installed that. I could not get it to intonate correctly as the saddle travel on the Deluxe bridge was too short. Next I try huge fat flats instead of mediums, no dice on the intonation but love their sound so left them on.

Next I get a now obsolete Leo Quan BAIII bridge which is a drop in replacement with about 2.5 times the saddle travel of the Fender Deluxe Bridge. Voila! Intonated dead on.

Fender USA Deluxe Bridge, $69.99
Obsolete Leo Quan BAIII $139.00
Fatter Flats $38.00
Intonation to the 20th fret? Priceless!

(I did sell the USA Deluxe Bridge to MJBass cause she needed some parts off of it for her USA Deluxe but I think I still lost money on the bridge. I also installed a Lindy Fralin split-coil pickup, a Sprague Vitamin-Q PIO cap and a custom pickguard...so altogether I think I've got....wait I don't wanna think what I've got in it.)

Image

Image
I THINK IT LOOKS AMAZINGLY TACKY! In a pukey neo-industrial Dollar Beer Night kind of way. But it sounds like thunder and seriously I think I could blow girls clothes off with it.



Saddle travel-- okay I can do that-- I can accomplish it even if I go top load. I'm at a point where if I'm going to use the bass --- I don't care, I'll poke holes in it with a butter knife if I have to. That would look tacky I know. I'm not really wanting to be funny on this one. I want the bass to work for me. I'm not worried about resale or any of that junk. If it looks like a Billy Sheehan bass-- so what? That's where I'm at on it. I'm usually sorry when I get rid of certain basses and I don't want to say I didn't try on this one.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:21 am
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Thats my point exactly,4 individual saddles will allow proper intonation to get as perfect as the bass will allow by allowing each string thier own saddle to intonate them by,2 saddle bridges with 2 strings per saddle is less likely to allow proper intonation to be had across the whole fret-board.
So the 12th fret harmonics are definately affected by the inability to adjust each single string on their own,My thinking is: when setting the intonation by compairing the open note to the 12th fret harmonic style is compromised from jump street because you are not getting the open string intonation as good as the bass will allow,but if you had the ability of one string at a time to intonate(1 string per saddle type bridge) it may be closer to perfect not having to meet somewhere in the middle.
Its tuff for me to word what I am thinking and may come across a bit outta left field,Bottom line is a 4 saddle bridge will intonate the bass better than a two saddle one will,truth be told the original 51-56 p-basses were'nt the final design and many different trials and errors evolved this bass into the OPITOMY of what a electric bass is/was/should be ETC...,So overtones and noisey electronics are part of the original design of this bass and many feel thats all part of its mystique,if it was'nt they would save up and buy the custum shop version of this bass with all the character defects of the first design reworked or up-graded.

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Neil quoted from the "Young Ones" MTV Sketch series.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:52 pm
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lawsuitbass wrote:
Thats my point exactly,4 individual saddles will allow proper intonation to get as perfect as the bass will allow by allowing each string thier own saddle to intonate them by,2 saddle bridges with 2 strings per saddle is less likely to allow proper intonation to be had across the whole fret-board.
So the 12th fret harmonics are definately affected by the inability to adjust each single string on their own,My thinking is: when setting the intonation by compairing the open note to the 12th fret harmonic style is compromised from jump street because you are not getting the open string intonation as good as the bass will allow,but if you had the ability of one string at a time to intonate(1 string per saddle type bridge) it may be closer to perfect not having to meet somewhere in the middle.
Its tuff for me to word what I am thinking and may come across a bit outta left field,Bottom line is a 4 saddle bridge will intonate the bass better than a two saddle one will,truth be told the original 51-56 p-basses were'nt the final design and many different trials and errors evolved this bass into the OPITOMY of what a electric bass is/was/should be ETC...,So overtones and noisey electronics are part of the original design of this bass and many feel thats all part of its mystique,if it was'nt they would save up and buy the custum shop version of this bass with all the character defects of the first design reworked or up-graded.



I'm getting lots of good stuff here from ya'll-- I think I'm moving to plan B-- measure, remove, and recon the situation-- and as my man Sabre says- Make it right for me!!!!

Now if anyone has some thoughts-- anything--- maybe even wierd ideas that are seemingly off the wall but not stupid-- maybe put a Jazz pickup in it ( probably wouldn't) but I'm open to ideas if anyone feels like offering some up. I'm thinking about Brother Daves capacitor thing.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:59 pm
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I changed both my 51's factory single coil pickup with a Duncan Hotrail,its original use was for a guitar but its a nice option for this bass,it gives even tone across the whole pickup by having two rails going across the whole pickup,insted of having 4 individual pole pieces each set directly under 1 string,but this pickup has 2 long rails allowing individual string vibration to be equal across all the string,
Its a great drop in pickup w/no mod necessary,it balences all the single string tones equally,its better than having the G string having more bite or the E string being louder which is common on the small polw type single coils.and for 55.00$ how could u lose. :mrgreen:

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Neil quoted from the "Young Ones" MTV Sketch series.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:47 pm
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lawsuitbass wrote:
I changed both my 51's factory single coil pickup with a Duncan Hotrail,its original use was for a guitar but its a nice option for this bass,it gives even tone across the whole pickup by having two rails going across the whole pickup,insted of having 4 individual pole pieces each set directly under 1 string,but this pickup has 2 long rails allowing individual string vibration to be equal across all the string,
Its a great drop in pickup w/no mod necessary,it balences all the single string tones equally,its better than having the G string having more bite or the E string being louder which is common on the small polw type single coils.and for 55.00$ how could u lose. :mrgreen:


So that would be a Telecaster 6 string guitar bridge pickup?
Since the rails go all the way across and evens out the tone-- wouldn't a regular Telecaster guitar bridge PU do the same with 6 pole pieces? Also the big question is the ohm readings. I'd want one the same as the one that's in the bass -- or what about that anyway??? That's a good question I think. Something doesn't seem normal about using a guitar pickup on a bass. I need more input on that thought so I can ponder it over. Very interesting though.


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:10 pm
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Knowing that all the parts put together are the sum of the whole job---did I say that right? ----- I'm now thinking about the bridge plate. I have a small assortment of bridges for bass guitars. I'm looking at them and (for instance) I'm noticing bridge plate thickness. This may sound like splitting hairs but like I said about the sum thing---- a regular P or J plate is 2mm-- a replacement bridge like the one I used on my T bass is just a tad over 3mm. The replacement has a thick style sound block/heel-- we know what the old P bridge looks like. I'm wondering which one to go with? I'm thinking about how the thicker bridge will effect string height and intonation. The P bridge (4 saddle) would be like what's already on it as far as adjusting heighth. Any thoughts?

The thick plate bridge may lend itself towards my having to drop the saddles really close to the plate and the regular bridge wouldn't have that.

The thick bridge is set up for string thru the body with a little bit of work- not much.

The old P 4 saddle bridge is top load.

I'm wondering how much better the bass might sound if I wire the pickup directly to the input jack and bypass the pots and cap?


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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:21 pm
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I never knew Sting played harmonica, I never really cared for harmonicas, I never really cared for Sting much after what happened. The elephant on the left plays harmonica. the one on the right doesn't.

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Post subject: Re: Sting bass Harmonics
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:39 am
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Actually, it is the location of the pickup in Sting/51 re-issue. It is not ideal for picking up harmonics, being too close to the neck. A Jazz Bass, for example: you can get better harmonics with favouring the bridge pickup.

My advice (IMHO etc.): don't ruin the bass with modifications. I've been there too many times with regrets. For the cost of mods, in the end you could get a VM or CV Squier Jazz and they come with the harmonics built-in.


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