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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:14 pm
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I was under the impression that the VT Bass and the VT Bass Deluxe differed substantively only in the ability you have with the latter to program, save and recall instantly your chosen settings and preferences.

Of course there is the DI thing missing from the base pedal and something about the cabinet emulation defeat switch from the pre-upgrade models, but leaving aside these, I thought the pedals were identical and functioned in an identical way giving identical effects.

Am I wrong, Brother Dave...?

Incidentally, the User Manual for the original VT pedal gives quite specific guidance on a wide variety of available tones, including- but not limited to- SVT; Fat Tube; 'Flip-Top' Style; Rage (!); Modern Rock, Indie Bass; distortion tones from Yes to Crimson to King' X style.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:28 pm
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The original intent of the VT pedal was to emulate the SVT. I tried one. It does that. All the controls were pretty much exactly as an SVT CLASSIC head.

I've tried 5 different FLIP-TOP emulations. I only EVER got close TWICE. Once with the Tech 21 NYC Bass Driver Deluxe. CLOSE, but not PERFECT. Closer was (SURPRISE!) the $50 Behringer BDI-21 pedal. Go ahead and argue that. I use the Behringer pedal a LOT, but mainly at home where nobody sees it. Best little emulator pedal within it's range I've got. I've owned the REAL: 67 Flip-Top, Fender 68 Bassman, Ampeg 71 SVT, Marshall 72 Superbass, Sunn 74 2000 S, I feel I'm qualified to comment on tone. That little cheap Behringer pedal is VERY close and I feel AT HOME with it.

Just saying....if something sounds bad to you...DUMP it. If it sounds good to you....keep it around.

If you are looking for a cheap little pedal to play around with, then you can do WAY worse than that Behringer BDI-21. It is quiet, cheaper than dinner for two and VERY RECORDABLE! If mine melted down like Chernobyl tonight, I'd be buying another one tomorrow. That is a very good little tool for home recording and practice. NO it isn't the best emulator pedal EVER, but for the MONEY it is a good value. And so far as getting a FLIP-TOP tone, I can get it easy from this pedal where others make it harder to find that tone.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:20 pm
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Not really what I was asking though, is it?

Nor does it alter the fact that what you said originally in your email to me (and subsequently in your penultimate post here) appears to be incorrect.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:18 am
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Quoting the Tech 21 regarding the basic VT pedal, "The tower of power pumping through a stack of 10-inchers is the legendary bass tone for players who enjoy being heard. From chunky funk with the ubiquitous flip top, to the higher gain growl of indie rock. Still need more? Lean on the Character control for the fat distortion of Crimson and King’s X. It all sounds massive DI. Clean SVT® thump to dirty earthquaking rump, you dial it in."

Right there Tech 21 says what it does which is SVT and Fliptop and overdriven SVT with ten inch speakers.

The basic VT pedal "kinda sorta" does a Flip-Top (with ten inch speakers) in addition to SVT, so I was wrong and I stand corrected on that. However as the respective basic and deluxe versions of both the VT and Bass Driver cost pretty much the same, unless you want to limit yourself to SVT & Fliptop (both played through ten inch speakers) you are better off with the original Bass Driver. With the Bass Driver you will get a much wider range of tones than from either VT version.

But, then again maybe I'm not wrong after all. I never saw a Flip Top with 10 inch speakers and never heard one, not that I know of anyway. So when recording direct or running direct to PA the VT is obviously limited to sound like a Flip Top played through ten inch speakers. That can not be an accurate Flip Top tone.

I have a recording/rehearsal amp that is also supposed to accurately emulate the B-15 Fliptop but since it has a single 10 inch speaker it doesn't do the Flip Top well either until you patch it into a mixer and even then it is still lacking. I'm not tickled with the suggested settings for the B-15 on the Bass Driver Deluxe either. Having used a B-15 for a couple of years I know what they should sound and feel like.

The 10" speaker emulation limitation brings us back to what this pedal does do well and that is the SVT 10" cab stuff, hence the name VT. I'm not a big ten inch speaker fan. I just prefer 15's. When I bought my SVT in 1971 I ordered up a pair of 2x15 cabs instead of the single 8x10.

I'm pretty sure my Bass Driver can get close to the tones in every single "Character Series" pedal. In fact the SVT and Fliptop settings the VT pedal is based upon are pictured in the Bass Driver Deluxe manual along with the following list of other suggested settings: Fat Tube, Distorted Bass, Bassman, Kings-X, Crimson, Slap, Reggaie, Solo, Chapman Stick Low, Chapman Stick High, Mid Scoop, Clean Boost, Full Range Clean (Piezo) & Acoustic Guitar. http://www.tech21nyc.com/support/manuals/sansamp/BassDriver-DLX-OM.pdf

Now from the VT manual here is the complete list of the other suggested settings: Fat Tube & Rage. That's all. http://www.tech21nyc.com/support/manuals/sansamp/CharacSeries-OMsettings_VTB.pdf

Now from the VT Deluxe manual here is the full list of all the other suggested settings: Fat Tube, Rage, Thumpy Funk, Fuzzed Out, Warm Compression & Yes. http://www.tech21nyc.com/support/manuals/sansamp/CharacSeries-VT_DLX-OM.pdf

Based on Tech 21's own documentation apparently the VT Deluxe is somewhat more tonally versatile than the basic VT, in addition to having lots more features shared in common with the Bass Driver Deluxe. And apparently the Bass Driver Deluxe has a wider tonal range. I've not tried the VT Deluxe so I can't say for sure. But I did find the VT limited in what it does compared to my Bass Driver Deluxe.

The pedals in the Character series are great at what they do, but it is still my contention that they are not as tonally versatile as their respective Bass Driver counterparts. It is also my contention that no emulation has yet got the B-15N tone dead right.

For further on the Character Series pedals here's a Jazz Times review of two of them: http://jazztimes.com/articles/19438-tech-21-sansamp-character-series-pedals

Here is a Bass Player magazine review of the VT: http://www.tech21nyc.com/reviews/images/VTBass_BP508.pdf?v=ot6jQTYdSCY

(Edited this page to insert the Tech 21 documentation links)


Last edited by brotherdave on Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:24 am
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REDLAWMAN wrote:
Not really what I was asking though, is it?

Nor does it alter the fact that what you said originally in your email to me (and subsequently in your penultimate post here) appears to be incorrect.


I think I just answered that with my previous post. Later.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:02 am
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There's sometimes a perceived fine line between being simply correct and appearing pedantic, but entirely for the benefit of anyone who may be seeking to buy any one of these pedals, I have to point out that both the original Deluxe VT pedal and the new, 2011 standard VT pedal both incorporate a dedicated speaker cabinet simulation defeat switch (as I already stated in my previous post), effectively negating the whole '10" speaker issue'.

Although, having said that, perhaps a great many people might seek to argue that the sealed 8x10 is an integral part of the SVT sound.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'll just buy a Heritage SVT-CL and be damned........


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:52 am
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My 2¢:

1) The best Flip-Top imitation I've been able to achieve through a PA is using a Line 6 POD X3. Certainly not perfect, but it does have that spongy mid-range that sits in the mix real nice. I bring this up because Line 6 recently released a new version, and the X3s can be found pretty cheap. In a "man cave" setting, the POD can be an excellent choice, the Acoustic, Eden, and other models are real nice.

2) The BDDI can cover a lot of ground. However, the lack of a mid-range control has occasionally been an issue in a live setting for me.

Having said that, the BDDI is certainly an elegant solution, and fits in a gig bag. Currently, I run the BDDI into a QSC power amp driving a GK 4x10 for stage sound, and run the XLR direct to the PA. The BDDI will also take phantom power from the PA. Very handy device. There's a reason sound guys smile when you pull one out!

There's a user named JimmyM over on TalkBass who has some great insights on the VT/VT Deluxe. He is impressed with the tube-like "feel" of the VT. My understanding is the tone engine is the same for both the VT and VT deluxe. If I were to replace the BDDI, I might just get the VT Deluxe.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:03 pm
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Thanks for that, LawDaddy- interesting stuff and it shows yet again that there are indeed more ways than one to cook a lovely egg.

As to the VT v VT Deluxe issue, to quote Tech 21 themselves, as of today (25/01/2001):-

"The internal circuitry is the same, and all the controls have the same range, but the digi-pots (the way it's able to "memorize" knob settings) can sometimes wind up in slightly different positions than the non-programmable pedal and still yield the same tones."


Needless to say, the latter part of the quote is irrelevant to our current discussion, but I left it in just for information.

I still want an SVT now though, but as usual, the one I really want isn't being made (just yet...!!). :)


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:38 am
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Isn't it just, pbassbob; isn't it just...... :)


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:17 am
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I have spoken directly with the fine people at Tech 21 on several occasions about the BDDI which I have used and gigged hundreds upon hundreds of times the worldover.

After the VT pedal came out I was intrigued and communicated regularly with them. However I use the DI function all the time. Then I heard a whisper that both a programmable version and a VTDI version were in the works. So I started asking specific questions etc.

ANYWAYS - from the horse's mouth - there are no tonal differences or sounds available on the VT Deluxe that are not on the VT pedal. The 'deluxe' monikor refers to the 6 saveable sounds, DI + parallel out and A/B functions.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:58 am
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I was a little confused re: the last part of that email I got from them, so I asked them to clarify and they were kind enough to do so. They responded as follows:-

"I'm saying that all the same tones are available in both, from one extreme to the other, and everything in-between, but you might have to use slightly different settings to achieve them".

(I think he then said "Leave me alone you pestering monkey and get playing your guitar instead of asking me daft questions, I've got work to do......).

Do you think we've 'done' this topic now??

May we move on to other points that interest me, like will an SVT 'explode' if you simply sit and stare at it in abject awe and adoration for too long and could Glen Campbell really play guitar...??


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:06 am
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How about a 300W head with two VT's built in?

http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/amps/bass/vt1969.html


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:27 pm
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I just bought a 3 way programmable Sansamp, and the damn thing didn't work- right out of the box. Took it back, but don't feel comfortable buying another one.

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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:28 am
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The Sans Amp (I have both the programable and std) on fat tube and you are good to go. I use it through Mark bass heads and cabs (210 and 115) and you would think it is a really nice SVT Classic or other fat Tube head. It is the real deal. I sold my SVT Classic and Fender 300 pro heads and heavy cabinets after playing with this. None of the weight, reliability issue and all of the sound.


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Post subject: Re: SansAmp Bass Driver DI vs VT Bass Pedal
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:45 am
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REDLAWMAN wrote:
.... could Glen Campbell really play guitar...??


Absolutely and he still can. Before his solo career and his own TV show he was first call session guitarist in THE WRECKING CREW which was the cadre of first call session musicians in LA in the 1960's and 70's consisting of some other people of note like Carol Kaye, Herb Alpert, Joe Pass, Hal Blaine, James Burton, Jimmy Bond, Julius Wechter, Dr. John, Joe Osborn, Al Delory, Leon Russell, Don Randi, Tommy Tedesco, Nino Tempo, Perry Botkin, Jr, Billy Strange and a bunch of other people that shaped music of the 60's and beyond, G.C. played on numerous major LA studio projects for people like Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Merle Haggard, the Beach Boys (with whom he also toured) and of course he played at his own personal sessions which earned him 5 Grammy awards. So yes, not only could he really play, he could REALLY, REALLLLLLY play. :D


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