It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:18 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Post subject:
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:33 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:47 pm
Posts: 17
Quote: "They commonly used white as an under coat for custom colors."



Thank you for this point. The white undercoat you allude to is of course in fact a Sealer.

This is a thicker material, with sufficient body in the paint to Fill and Seal all the pores of the wood grain that the Paint would otherwise sink down into.

Please appreciate, that Fender used for its Top coat colours what is essentially Paint designed for Automotive Applications, and that type of Paint is always, very, very expensive, in comparative terms.

You will understand that once the thicker Sealant has been applied, that it will require some time and temperature to cure properly before the Top coat colour can be applied. If the Body has already had its pores and grain, Filled and Sealed, so as to prevent sink in, and ensure efficient coverage of the very expensive Top coat colour.

It would be an unnecessary and unwarranted additional process, involving additional material serving no purpose, additional time curing and additional energy in the form of heat, in any area of the factory that would have extremely limited space available for any such superfluous processes. I trust you can see that absolute logic of this.

If you can't, if I told you it would cost three times as much, and take three times as long, to effect a Rectification. And buy the way, you will need to increase the Capital Investment in the Manufacturing Plant by $20,000 to create space for this, you would I trust begin to understand.

It was not cost effective, and not necessary to repeat the processes that had already occurred correctly during Manufacture, only the ones that subsequently had experienced the incidence of a problem.

This should be common sense.



Quote: "Fender is even building fakes that they call relics."



Presumably, you will be contacting Fender regarding the ethics of this.

Or is it perhaps, that they are attempting to recreate as best they possibly can, highly desirable Products, the market place strongly wishes for. At a price, people can genuinely afford.

Within the limitations of the legal tightening, and enforced technological changes, that have been imposed upon Companies regarding the atomisation, filtering and emission into the atmosphere, of volatile chemical vapours.

Governor Schwarzenegger, who had been a great supporter of certain of my 'interests' has some pretty strong views about such environmental matters. Personally I'm sure if it came down to a matter of whether the air we all have to breathe is clean, our whether a recreation of a Vintage Instrument was totally accurate in every single respect, I do know where HIS ethics would take him.

And I also know who would win the debate, and that, on a soundly ethical basis.



Quote: "Buyers are kidding themselves on some of these instruments."



An interesting remark. In point of fact, my personal experience in discussions with individuals that have purchased Fender Instruments, is that they greatly appreciate them, are extremely gratified to own them, and getting a real kick out of owning them. As I do.

They are fully aware these Instruments are not the Antique Instruments, they could never afford to own, but never the less, fully appreciate the singular characteristics of these recreations.

Why it should be of concern to someone, for a Manufacturer to have so many happy customers, is a matter I am clearly not intellectually well endowed enough to deduce.

And strangely content to remain so.



Quote: "Sellers are licking their chops at the potential re-certification of refinished Fenders that they bought years ago for much less."



Thank you for raising this graphic point.

Undoubtedly, some will be truly genuine relics, others will not. This is surely, the absolutely essential point of this thread.

If as I earlier suggested, the buyer takes it upon themselves, as to accepting some personal responsibility to invest time and effort in educating themselves, as to learning how to authenticate such things, it won't do such sellers much good, as they will be faced with a more demanding, fully informed, better educated type of client.

Such miscreant sellers have far more to fear from this approach, as they will more often than not be found out BEFORE the purchase is made. The power of the Internet today is such that any cheat, can be widely publicised as such, and thus an appreciative public avoid buying from them.

A good reputation is very hard to earn and very easy to lose, in the age of Forums and Facebook.

Clearly, this is a big hurdle for a deliberately fraudulent seller.



Quote: "That is the problem with this system. The sellers have no incentive to debunk a factory refinish story. If it was done at the factory - the price goes way up."



Hang on, with all possible respect.

Why should anyone actually wish to debunk an entirely accurate Historical Fact?

This reads as if you are a buyer, hoping to find an Antique Instrument that you can buy for a song. Duping the ignorance of an uneducated seller, out of a fair price for an extremely valuable Instrument.

I do indeed trust and believe that you are not. But it would truly be incredibly naive of us to assume that although there are mercenary sellers out there, there are no unscrupulously perfidious buyers.

Such people want to use, the type of Refinish issue under discussion in this thread, as a pretext to persuade those that know no better, to allow themselves to be effectively swindled.

With all possible respect. In my experience, such people are usually the first ones to trumpet and emphasise morals and ethics as being of absolute paramount importance.

Elsewhere in the Entertainment Industry. Magicians know the importance of misdirection and deflecting attention, from what is actually happening before one's eyes.


A relative of mine, has just been rebuilding a large Agricultural Building on his Estate. The elderly building that had been there formerly, had the roof blown completely off some time ago.

Certain people, local authorities among them, tried to argue that the building should be subject to a new planning law and permissions. In point of fact, I was able to determine from deeply buried archival knowledge, that this building had originally been placed on this site during a World War, when because of the need for food, buildings were allowed to be put up, wherever they were needed due to the War.

The issue in Judgement simply came down to this. What came first. The Original Building or the Newer Planning Laws. As the Original Building, predated by 50 years or so the new Planning Laws, they simply could not be applied to an existing structure.

There was no argument, the case was clear.


And here, the underlying argument you present in regard to these Instruments, is essentially the same issue. With all possible respect. You are arguing this point as if the Refinishing Issue being discussed in this thread, was an entirely new phenomenon. It is not.

The practise of Refinishing Brand New Instruments at the Factory, completely and utterly predates everything else that could possibly be said about it, any buying or selling information, and any argument that could be made.

The case, is once again, just as crystal clear.



Quote: "I can tell you that before I will pay 7 to 30 thousand dollars for an early Fender bass in an original finish. I had better be confident in the seller and whatever provenance he has to bolster the claim that the finish is original!"



Thank you, for making my essential salient point, so very well.

It would not be a very clever thing to do, to leave the validation of this to someone else, regardless of any expertise they might claim to possess.

Far better, to take complete responsibility for how you spend your hard earned money, check things out thoroughly against every truly reliable source of information, and satisfy yourself as best as you possibly can, that what you are purchasing, is the genuine article.

Such as the fact that from 1964 -1970 the Pickups of these Basses were dated either by label or a hand written date, and there is of course a multitude of minutia by which one can build a view about an Instrument.


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:52 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:00 am
Posts: 1226
Location: In the pocket north of Washington D.C.
The problem with verifying a bass such as this is that it is nearly impossible to do so.
You can look at pickup dates,as you suggest and pot codes and all sorts of indicators that I know and use to verify an instrument as a real Fender. That is to be expected, but verifying parts does nothing to verify a finish, unless the finish is present on parts that it should not be on.

I bought a 1960 precision back in 1978. It had been refinished to a natural brown but the previous owner told me that the bass was originally white. I saw traces of white paint on the wiring harness so I know that that was not the original color, because there is no way that Fender would have sprayed finish on the wiring harness! It had been refinished at least twice by previous owners.

I would want to see an original sales receipt from 1961 stating the color of the bass as white so that I know that WHITE was the delivered color from the factory.
Any refinishing done by the factory after the bass was initially sold, should also generate some commensurate paper work. A letter of complaint, A shipping label, A letter of apology or a tracking receipt showing the refinishing was done by Fender. Without this kind of paperwork, I think you are asking a lot of a customer to believe that the bass wasn't refinished after it was sold.

The process to finish and refinish these basses has been well documented and can be replicated flawlessly by any number of skilled craftsmen around the world. Many of these shops are creating multi-finished instruments and then artificially aging them to look like the bass in question. Thi is a common technique on the RE-Ranch refinish site. They will even sell you the spray cans of paint in the correct colors, to do this yourself.

The problem with Fender making relics is that they confuse the market.
If I want to know what playing a 1960 Stratocaster is like, a shop owner will hand me a relic of that model and expect me,the customer, to use that impression of the guitar to evaluate the experience.

The problem is that the relic 1960 Strat is not a real 1960 Stratocaster and never will be.
The collective memory of all players is being changed by the relics that they play, even if they are great instruments, they are not the real thing.

They even may be better than the real thing, but they are not the original, Leo made product.

_________________
If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of his children a drum.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: