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Post subject: Original Paint
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:36 am
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I was told my 66 P-Bass was all original. Someone said it was painted.
How do I tell. How do you post pictures?

[img866PRECISIONPAINT.JPG.JPG][/img]


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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:17 am
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[img]866PRECISIONPAINT.JPG.JPG[/img]


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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:18 am
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[img]866PRECISIONPAINT.JPG.JPG[/img]


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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:54 pm
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You need to upload your picture to a picture hosting site like I use PhotoBucket), after you've uplaoded the pic, run your cursor over the pic, a little menu will popup with a short list of options, move your cursor to the very bottom of the list where it lists an IMG option, left-click on it, it should momentarily say "copied", when composing your post here use the paste function (hit your right mouse button) to embed the picture in your post.

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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:19 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:21 pm
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Bathead, Thank you. I've always wanted to know how to do that.
Obviously I'm not a computer geek.


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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:17 pm
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You're welcome. Don't feel bad, it took me a couple of years to finally figure it out myself.
As to your question, It's hard for me to tell but it does look like it was repainted white at some point over what looks like some kind of brown finish. I can't say if that brown was an original finish or not.

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'10 Squier VM Jazz bass, maple fretboard, natural finish
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'09 MIM standard Strat, maple fretboard, sunburst finish
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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:15 pm
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There's 2 references to Olympic white over sunburst on this site.http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html


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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:33 am
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Quote: " There's 2 references to Olympic white over sunburst on this site."



Whilst it's entirely possible that the Instrument could have been Refinished a Dark Red, then later White, and you must take that into account. Indeed it is the case that early Fender Instruments were commonly refinished different colours one over another at the Factory, for a wide variety of reasons. This was a matter of Leo Fenders Manufacturing Operational Policy's I could go into at great length, but the important point to absorb, is that you can't take an apparent Refinish as evidence that the Instrument has experienced a non Factory Finish. The whole matter is far more complex than that.

My hunch would be looking at the picture, is that there was a problem with the underlying sealer. Fender struggled with their sealers at certain points in their Early History, and indeed, much later on to a lesser degree. The reason I write this, is both the discoluration and importantly the slight bubbling, you can see evidence of near the Neck Plate. What you are looking at, as best I can tell, is the remnants of Paint lifting, and breaking away from the wood beneath, all by itself. Indeed, there is no sealer adhering to the wood over quite a wide area. You will appreciate that Paint bubbling in this specific area, where contact and movement against the human body is maximised will inevitably cause flaking and continual wear to the detriment of the Finish.

The salient point is to acknowledge however, is that whatever is causing the Paint to bubble up, is actually at a lower point, beneath the underlying Red. It makes me imagine, that a problem with the sealer taking to the wood initially caused the original Finish to be Refinished at the Factory in the first instance. Where after sanding down the problem and effecting a Repair, with what may be a thick sealing layer of Darker Brown or Red coloured underlying barrier material, enclosing the problem entirely, they finally Refinished the Instrument Body, with a completely different Top coat colour.

Paint needs to pass an opacity test, where in the underlying layers the darkest and lightest elements of the Colour Spectrum are both properly covered by the Top coat colour and ensure whatever is underneath will not later show through. A Dark Brown or already present Red would be a pretty safe bet to entirely cover a Sunburst Finish with both bright and dark extremes present, as well as cover whatever caused the sealer to bubble in the first place. Some Paints were subject to Ulra Violet Fading in the Top coat colour so whatever was underneath needed to be an even finish all over the body.

There is a great deal of archival documented evidence to support this theory. Unless you have substantial evidence to the contrary. Or a well renowned expert and historian tells you otherwise, following a close physical examination of the Instrument. A matter we are clearly disadvantaged in, I would accept that the Instrument had experienced a Refinish at the Fender Factory in the process of its Manufacture, because of a problem with the underlying sealer, although sometimes this happened because of any type of undesirable blemish in the Finish.

In addition, it may be of interest to note that Leo Fender allowed his Production Operatives to make changes to the Allocated Finish Scheduled, if for some reason it was the best thing to do under certain circumstances. They were expected and empowered to make 'business decisions' both to keep Production going, and produce the best possible Finish, for any given Instrument, as was possible in any particular given situation.

One of these delegated 'Production Decisions', was that if the Book Matching of the Body's Wood Grain was not conducive to a good aesthetic effect, on a particular Instrument, as woods do vary enourmously. This would be the case most especially in regard to a Sunburst Finish, where the grain would be clearly seen, and paramount to the perception of Quality. Undoubtedly the reason Sunburst's are most commonly cited in this regard.

Clearly the Instrument was originally a Sunburst Finish. Then it was better to Repaint the Instrument, a solid colour, to seal the underlying Finish, then Refinish the Top coat colour to present the Instrument at its very best.

Hopefully, all this will make sense, if you think it through.


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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:15 pm
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Wheras you may be right as to a factory refinish, I would want to see white paint in all of the cavities and no white or red paint on any of the wiring harness.

This is still no guarantee that the bass wasn't refinished by a previous owner, but it would be one step in verifying that the finish and refinishes were original.

I have a problem with the fact that this bass has two different finishes over the original Sunburst finish.

To me, that looks like an after market refin. job, done probably in the 60's or 70's when these basses wern't worth much.

IMHO, I think the whole notion that Fender refinished bodies that had defective sunbursts is over blown.
You have to figure that it was a lot of trouble to refinish a body at the Fender factory. Do you really think that would make sense when you could just grab another blank wood body and spray the color that was needed and throw the bad body away?

How much would refinishing a body slow down production?

Don't you think that the Fender workers who were spraying sunbursts were pretty damn good at it even in the 60's and 70's?

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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:24 pm
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Talked to my friend who I bought it from.
He bought it as is in K.C. Missouri mid 1980's.
Get this, he paid $300 for it!!
He's not a collector and had no idea it might have been refinished.
Most people think it has been.
I'm hope to take it to a vintage dealer soon for an assessment.
If it is a refinish, any idea as to a fair value.
I'm not a dealer and would accept any fair offer.
Had one today for $2500. That seems close.
Thanks for all reply's.


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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:32 am
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Thank you for your comments.
A number of points are worth reflection.


Quote: "To me, that looks like an after market refin. job, done probably in the 60's or 70's when these basses wern't worth much"


This is precisely what would one expect any normal person to conclude.
Please forgive my poor grasp of the English language, if I've failed to make my points clearly enough to be comprehendible.
My opening line was - "it's entirely possible that the Instrument could have been Refinished a Dark Red, then later White, and you must take that into account."

What I meant by that, was that it is of course perfectly possible, that a previous owner could of had the Instrument Refinished for any number of reasons, and that must be considered and thoroughly investigated, if its relevant to 'you'.

However, my essential, salient, cogent point was, that you cannot, on the basis of a photograph, amateur opinion, or even dealer experience that is limited, consequentially, automatically, extemporarily conclude that is indeed the case. That could be a bromidic mistake, and could materially affect, the value of the Instrument.

It has been my observation, that it is a redoubtable asset to be able to properly assess Vintage Instruments, to have at ones disposal Vintage Experience, for which there is no adequate substitute. Which is why I wrote - "Unless you have substantial evidence to the contrary. Or a well renowned expert and historian tells you otherwise, following a close physical examination of the Instrument. A matter we are clearly disadvantaged in. I would accept that the Instrument had experienced a Refinish at the Fender Factory in the process of its Manufacture"


The reason for this, is as follows.

To automatically conclude that the Instrument has been Refinished by a previous owner, devalues or under values the actual worth of the Instrument to a Collector. In other words, you are shooting yourself in the foot as a seller, because any knowledgeable buyer or dealer will use this point, to vastly lower the price they are prepared to offer for the Instrument. It is a prodigious bargaining point, anyone would be ill advised to concede at the very outset.

But better advice by far to accept and automatically conclude, that unless "there is substantial evidence to the contrary. Or a well renowned expert and historian tells you otherwise" that the Instrument is actually as Originally Manufactured but worn. As this will vastly increase both its desirability to any owner or Collector, and significantly increase its monetary value should you ever wish to realise that, which it appears, you do.

I trust the sensibility and logic of this approach, I heartily recommend, to be compellingly persuasive, inescapable and ineluctable. It is an intrinsically 'safe' posture, entirely in 'your' own best interests as a seller.

There does exist, copious amounts of high detailed documentation, reference material, specialist books, interviews, connoisseur observation, and indeed much writing and a great many pictures on the Internet of Original Instruments Manufactured in this period and prior to it, in extremely similar condition to the one you own. An 'in between layer' covering of Dark Red is a quite commonly reoccurring theme, and as I wrote earlier, a good test for actual opacity of the final Top coat colour.

The paramount question is. Should an owner, automatically adopt a position, that inevitably creates immense opportunity for considerable monetary devaluation, in regard to such a Vintage Instrument? I think not! Why should anyone do this?

It is better to do some little investigation, to procure the vast research that is available to make one marginally cognisant with the ineludible facts. They may be needed at any point of sale, and make a very significant difference.

To the price a buyer, might be willing to pay.


Quote: " I would want to see white paint in all of the cavities"


Thank you again for this point.
I do appreciate you describing this as "one step in verifying".

I write this because I have Fender Instruments bought from new that have both been completely Painted throughout all the pockets, save the neck pocket where the Sprayers Hand Held Slave was fitted. And also Fender Instruments where there is but the merest whisper of overspray, and in the depths of the pockets, bare wood lightly sealed with a clear varnish. There are a great many such inconsistencies between earlier Fender Instruments that can only be attributed to individual Production Operators.

Any such assement would thus be inconclusive.


Quote: " IMHO, I think the whole notion that Fender refinished bodies that had defective sunbursts is over blown."


Thank you for your viewpoint.

In regard to myself, I would say of my own opinion that it is really neither here or there, and quite unimportant really to the matter in hand.

What is important, what is relevant and germane to the issue, is the Historical Record of documented factual information that is available, which we can utilise to inform our opinion and base our judgement; and thanks to the Internet, the growing number of pictures found of differing Instruments, all over the world belonging to different owners, that are Refinished Sunbursts with a Dark Red inter-layer of Paint.

In other words, the available physical evidence of owners, appears to affirm the record of available documentary evidence, and indeed, the considerable body of observations given by specialists in this field.


Quote: " You have to figure that it was a lot of trouble to refinish a body at the Fender factory". - "How much would refinishing a body slow down production?"


Thank you again for these thoughts.

In point of fact, it is a relatively simple matter to re-route Paint Rejects in every Major Paint Facility built in the last 50 years, regardless of the Product that is actually being Manufactured.

And it is common in all Paint Shop Facilities, for them to be designed with a production re-routing procedure available for any failure apportionment, so as to quickly, easily and cost effectively as possible, rectify any Paint Problem.

Put very simply, a mere speck of contamination, or fibre could easily create an unacceptable defect in the finish. For instance, a minute speck of cotton from an operators glove, will commonly go black if an attempt to polish it out is made.

Under a microscope, such a fibre in Paint is actually hollow.


Quote: "Do you really think that would make sense when you could just grab another blank wood body and spray the color that was needed and throw the bad body away?"


Leo Fender was a Radio Repairman.
He took equipment that most people would throw away.
And Repaired them in a way that made them work as well as when they were first bought.
He designed his Musical Instruments and his Manufacturing Production Operations, so that any and everything that could go wrong, could easily be rectified.
Added to that, we must also appreciate that among those that worked with him, his reputation was that of being a 'penny pincher', a 'thrift smith', a man that was quite careful with both money and materials.

This is the essential reason, that underlies the most salient point in this whole thread. When there was a Production Problem in Manufacturing. Musical Instruments were routinely Repainted as a normal part of the Manufacturing Process, because this was the most cost effective solution to rectify and resolve cosmetic issues.

Furthermore, it is very 50's & 60's thinking, especially following the Second World War.
People didn't throw thing away then the way they do today.
Then, the things they made in those days.
Were really worth keeping.
But thats just.
My opinion.


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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:48 pm
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Pink Panther- It is undoubtedly to a seller's advantage to maintain that a refinish on a Fender instrument was done at the factory, but if you are going to be ethical in your dealings with people, it had better be documented in some way or you and your buyer are just taking a leap of faith that the bass was a factory refinish and not done by some kid in his basement with a spray can of colored lacquer.

I know that this type of refinishing is commonly being touted as having been done routinely in the Fender factory.

I don't know if it was done or wasn't. I wasn't there and neither were you.

One thing that I do know is that there are many people trying to bolster the value of their old refinished Fender instruments by maintaining that they were redone at the factory.
I do know that the Fender factory was a massive operation even in the early 60's. They were consistently back-ordered throughout their history.
If refinishing an instrument was faster that starting a new body blank, then I would agree that it was possible, but I have trouble with the notion that they sprayed red between coats. They commonly used white as an under coat for custom colors.

There are many shops building fakes that show the same thing. Multiple layers of paint as if done at the factory. Fender is even building fakes that they call relics.
Buyers are kidding themselves on some of these instruments.
Sellers are licking their chops at the potential re-certification of refinished Fenders that they bought years ago for much less.

That is the problem with this system. The sellers have no incentive to debunk a factory refinish story. If it was done at the factory - the price goes way up. Don't think the " experts" that are selling these guitars and basses have your interests at heart.

I can tell you that before I will pay 7 to 30 thousand dollars for an early Fender bass in an original finish. I had better be confident in the seller and whatever provenance he has to bolster the claim that the finish is original!

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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:31 pm
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Thank you for your response.

You make points that are well worth further thought, exploration and discussion.

Please appreciate that whilst I have neither desire or intention, to be contrarian, the notion of ethical business you bring up is one particularly dear to my heart. So will address it.

Indeed, it is the case in the last few weeks my cored business 'interest', has just been awarded coveted inclusion the very highly revered 'Wall St Index' of the 50 most successful, most highly ethical and most sustainable businesses that there is. A most gratifying situation indeed, I'm sure you will appreciate.


Look. The Instrument may be a Factory Original Finish, that was I understand what we know that the earliest owner we know of stated, and provided the source was a knowledgably reliable one, this may be very significantly important evidence. This is a matter of 'first principles', 'archai, principia' and goes back to the time of Aristotle, 'principia prima'.

Or indeed, it may be an owner Refinished Instrument. As you say neither of us know.

However, to argue that an owner should by default, veer towards the latter, purely on ethical grounds, has no reasonable basis whatever in any form of ethics.

Such an argument, may indeed equally be seen, as an invitation to be set up, to be defrauded of the Instruments, possible true worth.

With all possible respect, an example of the use of a 'faulty logic' in thinking processes.



Quote "if you are going to be ethical in your dealings with people"



I am always that. No question. The problem is, since the beginning of time and the fall of man, that the world at large is not, as you previously noted.

Although the global nature of distance selling, and the continually refinement of law, has introduced many extremely welcome changes for the benefit of the consumer. The historically excellent advice, 'Caveat Emptor', let the buyer beware, is I believe well worth remembering.

The indisputable fact that this widely known 'law of commerce' has been accepted and practised for so very long within the American Legal System, implies and indicates that it is a wise buyer indeed, that takes nothing for granted, and for many centuries, has legally placed the burden of decision, upon the buyer, not the seller.

That is gradually changing, and more speedily with the introduction of distance selling and Internet sales, and in truth, has been since a landmark case in 1912. Never the less, the Historic Tradition of Law, clearly has been one where the buyer themselves assume every reasonable responsibility, most particularly in cases where an item is second or third hand; and it is unquestionably apparent there may clearly be a degree of ambiguity involved, in assuring that what they believe they are buying, is as they believe it to be.

This does not exempt the seller, from clear cases of deliberate fraud. But that is not in question here, at all. So whilst I find the admonishments within your response laudable, the question really is, whether they are truly effectual, realistic and accomplishable, given the 'worldly wise' environment with which we have to deal?

The entire History of American Law, would appear to indicate otherwise. And I believe that to be a point, well worth noting. Therefore my view, where Vintage Classic Instruments are concerned, is that it's better for a buyer to take some personal responsibility.

And ensure every reasonable step has been taken to validate the nature of what they are spending their hard earned cash on. This is just plain common sense to me.



Quote: "it had better be documented in some way or you and your buyer are just taking a leap of faith that the bass was a factory refinish"



With all possible respect.

If the Musical Instrument in question had been purchased from new, and all the original documentation and labelling supplied with the Instrument was still intact and available.

Nothing in that documentation would indicate whether the Instrument had been Originally Refinished at the Fender Factory.

And that, beneath the Top Coat Colour, there were several layers of differing colour finishes.

That is a categorical, indubitable, incontrovertible fact.


But then, it is also an incontrovertible fact that Historical Evidence that Brand New Instruments were Factory Refinished, is readily available for anyone who possess sufficient interest in the subject, to spend the time and money involved, in thoroughly investigating such matters.



Quote: "it had better be documented in some way or you and your buyer are just taking a leap of faith that the bass was a factory refinish"



With every possible respect, let's think this through.

Because, it really reminded me of some things that certain people have said at times, sometimes very famous people, politicians etc.

And as they speak, what they say seems right, but when you carefully think right through the full implications of what they say, it soon becomes strikingly apparent, that there is a 'deep seated, faulty logic' involved, in their thinking.


If you are placing, a burden upon the seller, to provide legally binding documented proof to corroborate and validate the authenticity of what is essentially an Antique Instrument.

Then you are asking them, at the point of sale, to provide something far, far beyond expert analysis and opinion. In point of fact, the Owner will undoubtedly need to partially or completely dismantle the Instrument, with no guarantees whether it will be anything like approaching, the same 'Playing Instrument' when it is put back together, always provided, it will be.

In fact, a Laboratory with an appropriate microscope and ancillary technical equipment, could determine many matters, in particular those relating to the chemicals involved in Paint Material, but also determine within certain boundaries, many matters relating to time and age.

Whilst all this is possible, and possibly desirable, when you start to insist upon such things as a matter of course, and begin make them a matter of business ethics, with every possibility of being subject to the rigours and enforcement of Law.

Then you had better be prepared for the huge bill that will follow such insistence. Because providing authentication from highly qualified specialists and legally validating such matters, is often a very expensive affair.

The cost of which, would of course in every instance, be passed forward directly onto the purchaser of the Antique Instrument.

This could, quite easily double the price, of all such Antique Instruments.


And with the greatest possible respect.

Appears to be another instance, of someone shooting themselves, in the proverbial foot.

It seems a good idea on the surface, if you say it quickly enough; but when you think it right the way through, and examine the full ramifications of what is being suggested, you will conclude that no one, anywhere, is likely to appreciate realising the far higher cost of purchasing Antique Instruments.

But that is what it would mean, and there's no way around that whatever.


In my local Museum here, there is a Stradivarius Violin that was donated to the Museum by a family that formerly dealt with Violins. A Violin Maker that worked for them, one of the finest in this country, now cares for and attends to all my Instrument Requirements and Repairs.

There are many unique things about this Instrument, like the size and shape of the Fingerboard, etc. where it differs from other Stradivari, and arguments have raged for years whether it was indeed a Strad. But the main thing is it has never been played, and as such, never encountered the rigours of performance, never been in need of Repair, and thus serves as the best, most perfectly preserved example of a Stradivari there is in the world.

Experts come from everywhere to view it and learn more about the Stradivari Violins. But it was possible to date the Instrument through the centuries scientifically to the time of Stradivari. The last time it was valued, it was worth $20,000,000.

So if you want authentication, these things are in this technological age, very possible.

The real question is, whether you are prepared to pay for the service?


Last edited by Pink Panther on Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:32 pm
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Quote: "and not done by some kid in his basement with a spray can of colored lacquer."



Last week, I was visited by the Group Manufacturing Director, a 'Group Supervisory Board Member' for a portfolio of Major Brand Companies responsible for 16 Major Factories Worldwide. One of which is in America, (The Paint Shop of which was originally designed by a friend of mine, and the recent updated refurbishment of which was designed by another close friend) that has just been the beneficiary of Inward Capital Investment of 750M.

With another two Major Plants elsewhere about to come on stream this year, plus another half a dozen Distribution Centre Paint Shop facilities. But that's just one Major Manufacturing Group. I have visits from a great many other different Brands and Manufacturers, a number of the biggest in the World, most you could think of.

So with that background, I honestly believe, I would, be able to tell such a difference you allude to.

But I have actually explained this link to so many Manufacturing Operations around the World.

For a deeply salient reason, you will come to appreciate the point of, as you read on.



Quote: "One thing that I do know is that there are many people trying to bolster the value of their old refinished Fender instruments by maintaining that they were redone at the factory."

- Snipped for Shortness -

Quote: "There are many shops building fakes that show the same thing."



Thank you for the timely and eminently sensible, warning.

I sincerely trust, that everyone who reads your wise words of warning, will take full heed of them.

It's absolutely essential that anyone considering either buying or selling Vintage instruments bears this in mind.



Quote: "Multiple layers of paint as if done at the factory."



Thank you for so openly conceding, the absolute core truth, of everything I have thus written.

That is, that at the Fender Factory, when there was a cosmetic problem in Paint, Instruments were often Repainted a different Colour, and thus Vintage Instruments are sometimes found with layers of alternative Colours beneath the Top coat Colour.

And that these Instruments were in Factory Original Condition.

I greatly appreciate you making this point.


One further point comes to mind, while we're on it, sometimes White Finishes had a Nitro Lacquer and sometimes they had none at all. Usually the Lacquer changes tint, and takes on a warmer yellowish or greenish hue.

Of course, if the Finish has no Lacquer, then it will, if the UV Rays don't fade it, retain a more strongly brilliant white appearance.

Both types of White Finish did occur as Original Factory Finishes.



Quote: "I have trouble with the notion that they sprayed red between coats."



I bumped into a friend the other day.

And I asked him what he was currently doing.

He explained that he had been visiting various countries and one in particular, looking for somewhere to put a new Factory. Normally, when a Company achieves stunning market penetration , it exceeds their ability to meet the demand for the Product.

What most Manufacturers do (stupidly) is to increase the output of volume from the Factory, at the expense of the innate Quality of the Product. But this particular Company my friend worked for, was far more ethical altogether. They decided to build a New Factory, simply to take care of peak cycles in the market penetration of their most popular Models. And here they would build the most popular Models in the most popular colours.

Only producing Products in the top three 'high runners', the best selling colours.


There are truly Massive Paints Shops, and Tiny Paint Shops, and others in between, but the principal outlined below is the same.

Now Paint Shops, buy the expensive materials to Paint their Products, in the quantities they expect to use. So some 'high runners' may be mixed, in large Vats before being pumped and supplied to the Spray Booths.

Colours that were used in small quantities, might be mixed in a Mini Mix or Micro Mix System, or even indeed hand mixed via a formula in two pack Paint and sprayed with a pot gun.

But irregardless, these 'high runners' are always on tap, very easy to use, and give excellent coverage, these are the most heavily utilised Paints so reflect that.


The point is.

Although some famous 'Brands' do throw up a few notable exceptions.

In almost every Paint Shop, around the World, and you will appreciate from my earlier points that I am in a good position to write this. Red is without doubt, 'the' or, one of the most, 'highly running' colours there is.

When we consider that the Instrument was Manufactured in the Sixties. This fact, become all the more so important. Red was an absolutely dominant theme where ever you looked, and if you asked someone here them what colour they wanted a Strat. Red would have been the likely answer.


As I wrote earlier, it is from a technical point of view, a great test of opacity, but equally, there would have been far greater quantities of Red Paint available, and directly on hand in the Booth to the Sprayer, to lay down a Sealing Barrier to the problematic Sunburst Finish below.

The real reasons to many seemingly perplexing problems in Life, often come down to very mundane and practical issues, indeed, and there are better, more easily understandable reasons for spraying a layer of Red, than any other colour I can think of.

This paint would have been 'warm air drying' and left for a short time, soonest cured and now ready for Refinishing.

A much better method than unnecessarily regressing to the White Sealer Stage in the Paint Processes.


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