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Post subject: Vintage P from eBay just doesn't sound very good...
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:48 pm
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hey all

I have a somewhat hard to define problem but I'd love to run it by you anyway.

I'm primarily a guitarist and producer, but need a good bass for recording and some gigging. I love the p bass and always have, and have recently played a lovely early-70's one on some sessions for other people and decided that was the way to go.

Since bass is not my primary interest, and 70's (not to even get into 60's) P's tend to go for so much, I thought I'd wade into the murky waters of buying a vintage bass on ebay.

I found a 78 P that was a pretty good deal, theoretically all original save a replacement pickguard.

The problem is, this bass just doesn't sound very good.
It's thin and almost twangy in tone.
I've had it set up here in NYC and asked a couple bass player friends of mine what the deal is. No one can really say. It just doesn't sound like a P, and it just doesn't sound good in general. You have to roll the tone know almost all the way off (aka towards the bassy end) to moderate the trebly brightness enough for it to sound decent, but even then it's just a weak sounding instrument.

Any ideas on why this is and/or what to do about it?
Theoretically it is the original pickup, etc.
I just don't know what to do...

Thanks!


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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:52 pm
It could need new strings. These may be old or just the wrong type for the sound you want.


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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:29 pm
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they came with new flatwounds and i replaced them with standard issue rounds. same issue.

i should preface this i guess that i've been a touring, 'professional' guitarist/producer/etc for a decade and in the course of that time played 5 or 6 P's fairly thoroughly. the bass just... doesn't sound good. it sounds thin and wussy whether DI'd or run through an amp (i have a lovely ampeg B15).


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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:52 pm
pass on it then.


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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:05 am
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Hi Frozen and welcome to the forum.

There is nothing wrong that can't be fixed I'm sure. So don't panic. Sounds like the pickup pair might be weakened. This is perfectly normal on a 32 year old instrument. It is caused by age. Dust, metal filings etc works it's way into the pickup winding and it breaks down the enamel insulation resulting a short or two shorts or five shorts or twenty shorts! These shorts cause the pickup's output to fall and resistance to fall. The lower the resistance the more highs a pickup has and the lower the output. This might explain why yours stopped sounding like a P-Bass and wants to sing soprano.

Another problem with Fender pickups in general is that the winding is in direct contact with the magnets and the alnico magnets react with the insulating lacquer on the wire and breaks it down which results in a dead pickup. I don't think this is your problem since it still has usable output yet sounds wimpy.

The pickup pair should read around 9K to 12K Ohms or in that ballpark. The higher the resistance the higher the output and the more bass the pickup produces.

I suspect the pickup is weak but I'd put it on a meter and check it to make sure. If it checks strong at 10 to 12K Ohms then something else is wrong. The Ohm test should be done at the pickup leads, and to do it right you should have one lead disconnected from the circuit.

Another possibility is someone took the original pickup pair out and replaced it with one from another bass. Maybe even an inferior pickup. It happens.

Another possibility is a bad or corroded jack. Faulty pots or a short somewhere.

Finally the capacitor could be bad, the incorrect value or wired incorrectly. A capacitance meter would verify the cap is good or show it is bad.

All this any competent tech can check and find out quickly what is causing the tone issue.

If the impedance of the pickup reads low, most techs and many owners want to put a NEW pickup in. This can cost a lot more money than you think because your instrument is no longer original which really kills value. I'd suggest getting the original pickups rewound. There are several competent rewinding services that I know of personally and many more incompetent ones. One of least expensive yet competent people doing this is Jared Brandon. His website page for pickup rewinding is: http://www.brandonwoundpickups.com/?page=services
His fee is VERY reasonable. Other good rewinding services are Lindy Fralin and Curtis Novak but Jared Brandon beats their prices and does a really good job. Most of the custom pickup shops had rather sell you a new pickup than rewind your old one, so they charge just as much to rewind your old pickup as to sell you a new one!

You are best off getting someone who does pickups full time to rewind one for you instead of using a full service shop that works on everything because they just don't rewind enough bass pickups to get good at it. Pickup winding to get good tone is as much art as science. Any machine can wrap wire 10,000 times around a bobbin, but that is not how you get good tone. You need to scatterwind it by hand. That takes talent and experience.


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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:16 am
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hey dave

thanks so much for the thoughts. that's what i needed. as the commenter before you made clear, the two options are just reselling the thing and starting again, or trying to get to the root of the problem as cheaply as possible. obviously just because it's a P doesn't mean that it's exactly or even particularly like any other P. my beloved 1965 ES-335 is, to me, unlike any other 335 i've ever played and worth its weight in gold.

that said, there really does seem to be just something basic wrong with the tone of the bass, at least as far as a P is "supposed" to sound. the output level does not seem to be much of an issue, for what it's worth.

i'll take the bass to a tech here... i'm in new york city, i imagine there might be a competent pickup winder somewhere in the area? i just can't part with the instrument for two long because of rehearsal and gig obligations.

thanks again.


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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:50 am
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In NYC you could start by talking to Matt Brewster at 30th Street Music, 236 West 30th St, NYC. Their phone is 212-868-2660.

If the pickup is the problem and he can't rewind your pickup there, he likely knows someone in NYC who can. They also carry ready to drop in replacement pickups. They are a Jason Lollar Pickups dealer however they may or may not keep Precision replacement pickups in stock. If you are as under the gun as you say, the fastest solution for a bad pickup would be to buy a new replacement pickup and have it installed until the rewound pickup gets back and then swap them out to get the original back in. Sell off the briefly used replacement on eBay and you'll get most of your money back.

No matter what the problem turns out to be, no guitar repair department that I know of is going to drop what they are doing to fix this while you wait, so if you can not do without one then you are going to need a back up bass. It took 8 business days just to get one of mine setup at the tech I use last time. If you can't borrow one from someone, I'd just buy a used recent production MIM P-bass or even a recent production better quality Asian knockoff to use as a backup and keep it around permanently. Like a Squier Classic Vibe for one example.

If you don't want to buy a cheap backup but still can't go without a bass, there also are rental services in NYC where you can rent an instrument while yours is being repaired. Studio Instrument Rentals, Inc. is one. They are at 475 10th Avenue, 2nd Floor, NYC and their phone 212-627-4900. Granted it is pretty expensive to rent a vintage instrument but if you have to have a bass while yours is being fixed you either will be borrowing one, renting one or buying a cheap back up outright.


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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:51 am
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hi dave

yes, 30th street is where the aforementioned 335 is from, as well as where i took the P for its first set-up. i'll ask them about rewinding.

b


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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 am
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I remember taking the pickguard off of my '78 P Bass last August to get at the t-rod. Tthese days, I've learned. not I pop the neck off (after de-tuning of course...)

Days later, when I plugged the bass in again and played her, she sounded like a Strat.

A local tech told me when I removed the pickguard, I compromised a solder joint, hence the tinny sound.

I hope the bass gets better for you.


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