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Post subject: Help anyone?
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:05 am
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I have a 1972 P bass and trying to get info on it. It’s a fret less and the color is Sahara Taupe. The info I have come across is that it’s a test color that Fender did back then but the tracking runs cold after that. Yes basically I am trying to find out what its worth but more so just how much a collectors piece it is. Any help would be heart fully appreciated


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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:19 pm
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The biggest chunk of really collectible Fenders are ones made pre-CBS aquisition in Jan '65. But of course, given the amount of stock on the shelves, some '64 components ended up on '65 instruments. So, there's a grey area there.

In any case, your '72 FL P-bass is likely fairly rare for two reasons:

1. FLs started coming out around '69 or '70, so not too many had been made at the time yours was manufactured;

2. The Sahara Taupe finish (assuming it is - not doubting, but that plays into value).

But, rareness does not necessarily translate to great value.

The biggest contributors to value are condition and complete originality, right down to the screws for the pickguard (strings excluded). The quality of the 1970s Fenders in general tends to be highly variable, so that plays a role also.

Also, "value" is what someone will pay for it. I'm 99% a fretless player, but in general, there is not much market for FL P-basses, so the fretted basses tend to bring more $. That said, if you have a near mint '72 FL with an experimental finish and a fretless player really wants it, it could command a pretty nice price. In any case, I would certainly consider it a collector's piece, even if it isn't an all-original '57.

So, any pictures or further descriptions would be helpful. Also, is the fingerboard maple or rosewood? Lined or unlined? How tightly does the neck fit into the neck pocket?


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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:31 am
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Any bass is collectible- If you want to "collect" them.

Now a collectible bass that is likely to hold or appreciate in value, is a much harder item to identify.

In my opinion, the 70's Fender basses are appreciating in value and doing quite well as far as collectible pieces go.

While they may never eclipse the values of older Fender's, I don't think anyone can say that they are not collectible.

As far as fretless Fender Precisions go:

-None of them had lines on their fingerboards.

-They may be devalued as a fretless bass but nothing prevents an owner from swapping necks with a fretted bass of the same or close to the same year.

Suddenly you have a fretted Precision in a custom color. +$$$

Often this happens and be aware of it, if you care. I don't know how to tell if a bass had the neck swapped, if the neck pocket is clean and no paint adheres to the neck.

Guitar Center is diplaying a 1970 Precision bass in original sunburst with rosewood neck for approx. $2850. I don't know if the bass is really worth that but someone must think so.
I can remember being offered the same type of bass for $150 dollars as used bass in 1971, but a lot of us older players have those stories to tell.

The problem with an "experimental finish" is documenting it in some way.

You have to be able to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the bass wasn't refinished 6 months after it was purchased by somone who didn't like the original finish. Such an old refinish will have sunk into the wood just like an original finish but it would still be a refinish and devalue the bass by half of current "vintage" value, not add to it like a custom color that is well documented to have been used.

Good luck with your bass and post some pictures of it if you can.

We would all like to see what you have.

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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:50 am
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About 10 years ago, I played what was advertised as a '69 fretless p-bass. It had a rosewood neck with silver "fret" lines. I didn't know much of anything about the history of FL production, but ended up not buying it mainly because the side dots lined up with the fingerboard dots, making proper intonation just a total pain in the neck. I don't want to think when I play.

Anyway, this gets to your point about swapping necks. While FL production on the P-bass is said to have started in '70, given the wiggle room in serial #'s it is possible that the serial suggested '69 and the bass was indeed made as a FL. But the rosewood board with fingerboard dots and silver lines with side dots as in a fretted bass now makes me pretty sure it was likely a de-fretted neck (and who knows if it was original).

Anyway, back to the original poster; certainly it's an intriguing bass. It's my understanding that Fender does not keep records of original finish vs. serial #, so you're a bit stuck there. If you remove the neck, you might find evidence of the current finish overlying residue from the original, but this would only prove (suggest is a better word) it a refin. I don't know how you prove it is not a refin.

Here is a picture of sahara taupe: http://www.strat-central.com/pics/strats/19811984/79stratsaharataupefull.jpg

If it looks just like that and has some nice finish checking, it at least suggests an older finish. BCBassman: if someone sent the bass back after six months and had Fender do a re-fin, would it really cut value by 50%?

For some scope of pricing, I was shopping 70s fretless P-basses about 6-7 months ago for several months on ebay (a better example of "value" as opposed to what guitar sellers think something's worth) and they were selling in the $1,100-$1,200 range and not selling (not well, anyway) in the $1,600-$1,800 range (and up). These are mainly '75-'78 vintages I'm talking about.

But if yours is all original (many of these were not completely original) and truly has a custom or experimental finish, there's a real premium there. And a '72 is generally more desireable than a mid-late '70s for sure.

Pictures would indeed be nice.


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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:40 am
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Quote:
Here is a picture of sahara taupe: http://www.strat-central.com/pics/strat ... pefull.jpg

If it looks just like that and has some nice finish checking, it at least suggests an older finish. BCBassman: if someone sent the bass back after six months and had Fender do a re-fin, would it really cut value by 50%?


The problem with the notion that Fender would refinish any instrument is that they never did re-finishes.

FMIC was back-ordered 2000 instruments throughout the 70's so they didn't really have the time or resources to refinish instruments.
If you had a warranty claim on a finish, they gave you a new body or entire instrument rather that fool with a re-fin.

I hear this from a lot of sellers, but unless you have some sort of Fender factory paperwork to prove that they refinished the bass, its just another reifinished instrument.
As to how that affects someone's desire to buy it is another matter. A seller may get top dollar because the buyer wants it or beleives that the finish is original.

I can tell you that they won't get my money with a story like that.

Good luck with it.

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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:45 pm
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Well, I realize you can't believe everything you read, but this website would suggest the Fender did do factory refins:

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

"This 1966 Candy Apple Red (C.A.Red) Stratocaster was clearly sent back to the factory for a factory refinish. The number codes are clear evidence of this. This CAR finished used gold as the undercoat, which was standard practice after 1965. Notice the different look than the silver undercoat CAR finish below." See just over halfway down the page.

By the 1970s I would think that if they ever did do refins, the practice might have ended.


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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:49 am
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BCbassman wrote:
Quote:
Here is a picture of sahara taupe: http://www.strat-central.com/pics/strat ... pefull.jpg

If it looks just like that and has some nice finish checking, it at least suggests an older finish. BCBassman: if someone sent the bass back after six months and had Fender do a re-fin, would it really cut value by 50%?


The problem with the notion that Fender would refinish any instrument is that they never did re-finishes.

FMIC was back-ordered 2000 instruments throughout the 70's so they didn't really have the time or resources to refinish instruments.
If you had a warranty claim on a finish, they gave you a new body or entire instrument rather that fool with a re-fin.

I hear this from a lot of sellers, but unless you have some sort of Fender factory paperwork to prove that they refinished the bass, its just another reifinished instrument.
As to how that affects someone's desire to buy it is another matter. A seller may get top dollar because the buyer wants it or beleives that the finish is original.

I can tell you that they won't get my money with a story like that.

Good luck with it.


I agree with BC on this. Legend says that Leo Fender referred refinishing inquiries to Lay's Guitar Shop in Akron, Ohio during his reign. (They still do GREAT work.) Fender did repairs, but not refinishing. I am more than "suspicious" of any bass said to be FENDER FACTORY REFINISHED. I have seen color STAMPS. You may have too. These were for initial ORDERS and not for refinish directions. This was a production line people! Stripping and refinishing just wasn't part of the production process. EVER.


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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:46 pm
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Quote:
The problem with the notion that Fender would refinish any instrument is that they never did re-finishes


Ain't true, Fender did customer refin's well into the early 70s and could have done that bass, although it would have been right at the end of when they'd accept the work. That they did refinishing is well documented and I know they did from personal experience.

The problem was that Fender did refinishing, but they didn't do restorations, and would finish any year body or neck in whatever process & materials they were shooting for production at the time. In '71 I had a foolish customer insist upon refinishing his early 50s Tele. When the local luthier couldn't do the work for a year or more the guy had us send his Tele back to Fender for "restoration". It came back sprayed in white Poly, with a poly neck and the big CBS decal! As you point out, Fender would occasionally just swap in a new body or neck if the original required what they felt was excessive prep. So you might send in a vintage Strat body and get back a new one.

Factory refins are easy to identify. Fender marked the bodys and necks with deep number stampings or punch marked in numbers that would indicate either the serial number, an invoice number or the work order number. Tbese made it easy to identify the items after they were painted, which was always done along with a production batch.


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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:50 pm
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Quote:
The problem with the notion that Fender would refinish any instrument is that they never did re-finishes


Ain't true, Fender did customer refin's well into the early 70s and could have done that bass, although it would have been right at the end of when they'd accept the work. That they did refinishing is well documented and I know they did from personal experience.

The problem was that Fender did refinishing, but they didn't do restorations, and would finish any year body or neck in whatever process & materials they were shooting for production at the time. In '71 I had a foolish customer insist upon refinishing his early 50s Tele. When the local luthier couldn't do the work for a year or more the guy had us send his Tele back to Fender for "restoration". It came back sprayed in white Poly, with a poly neck and the big CBS decal! As you point out, Fender would occasionally just swap in a new body or neck if the original required what they felt was excessive prep. So you might send in a vintage Strat body and get back a new one.

Factory refins are easy to identify. Fender marked the bodys and necks with deep number stampings or punch marked in numbers that would indicate either the serial number, an invoice number or the work order number. Tbese made it easy to identify the items after they were painted, which was always done along with a production batch.


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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:20 pm
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Quote:
The problem was that Fender did refinishing, but they didn't do restorations, and would finish any year body or neck in whatever process & materials they were shooting for production at the time. In '71 I had a foolish customer insist upon refinishing his early 50s Tele. When the local luthier couldn't do the work for a year or more the guy had us send his Tele back to Fender for "restoration". It came back sprayed in white Poly, with a poly neck and the big CBS decal! As you point out, Fender would occasionally just swap in a new body or neck if the original required what they felt was excessive prep. So you might send in a vintage Strat body and get back a new one.

Factory refins are easy to identify. Fender marked the bodys and necks with deep number stampings or punch marked in numbers that would indicate either the serial number, an invoice number or the work order number. Tbese made it easy to identify the items after they were painted, which was always done along with a production batch.


If you worked in a Music Store and have fiirst hand knowledge of this happening, then I stand corrected. I just know that the company was back-ordered and believe what a lot of these refinish jobs are actually after market refins. done be someone other than Fender.
I can see Fender giving a customer a new body and neck instead of going through all of the trouble to strip and refinish an old body. That is a lot of work when you have new bodies coming off the line.

I just don't know for sure. Its a lot to believe some of these refinish stories and its hard to document what actually happened with the passage of so much time.

I rec. that all beware of what you buy and believe. :?

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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:11 pm
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As I pointed out, true Fender factory refins are not unusual and are very easy to identify. It's going to be up to a potential buyer to gauge the reliability of the seller and ask for documentation, etc. Bear in mind the most recent one was done nearly 40 years ago, so receipts and other docs might be long gone.

I'm sure some unscrupulous seller might try and copy the Fender refin numbering scheme or some such, but the age of the finish and a host of other clues would likely trip them up. Fender MIGHT replace a body or neck if the items condition was such that it would in their estimation require too much prep work. This was not the rule but the exception. I sent enough of these off to California to have learned what to expect back from Fender.

Here's a great article re: vintage Fender finishes, with a bit of information on factory refins.

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html


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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:02 am
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FretlessOnly wrote:
About 10 years ago, I played what was advertised as a '69 fretless p-bass. It had a rosewood neck with silver "fret" lines. I didn't know much of anything about the history of FL production, but ended up not buying it mainly because the side dots lined up with the fingerboard dots, making proper intonation just a total pain in the neck. I don't want to think when I play.

Anyway, this gets to your point about swapping necks. While FL production on the P-bass is said to have started in '70, given the wiggle room in serial #'s it is possible that the serial suggested '69 and the bass was indeed made as a FL. But the rosewood board with fingerboard dots and silver lines with side dots as in a fretted bass now makes me pretty sure it was likely a de-fretted neck (and who knows if it was original).

If it looks just like that and has some nice finish checking, it at least suggests an older finish. BCBassman: if someone sent the bass back after six months and had Fender do a re-fin, would it really cut value by 50%?

For some scope of pricing, I was shopping 70s fretless P-basses about 6-7 months ago for several months on ebay (a better example of "value" as opposed to what guitar sellers think something's worth) and they were selling in the $1,100-$1,200 range and not selling (not well, anyway) in the $1,600-$1,800 range (and up). These are mainly '75-'78 vintages I'm talking about.

But if yours is all original (many of these were not completely original) and truly has a custom or experimental finish, there's a real premium there. And a '72 is generally more desireable than a mid-late '70s for sure.

Pictures would indeed be nice.

The fretless P-bass with the "silver lines" instead of frets and the side dots that line up with dots on the fingerboard is a de-fretted bass. It is not original. A real fretless Fender Precision will have the side dots line up with the fret locations and it will not have lines of any kind.

Some one ground down the frets and left the tangs in as markers. This is a bad idea for a fretless because the fret tangs will not wear as fast as the finger board. and you will get buzzing, etc. from the bass.
I removed the tangs fron a fretless neck like this one by using a nail set and hitting the end of the fret tang until it popped up above the finger board. You can then re-fret the neck or install wood/plastic lines instead of tangs to make the fretless neck playable.

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