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Post subject: *** THAT COUNTRY MUSIC/ELVIS/ROCK N' ROLL SOUND ELUDES ME***
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:27 am
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Hi everyone,

I'd really appreciate some advice please.

I want to play principally Country music (Glen C, Kenny R, etc.) /Elvis/Buddy Holly/50's & 60's Rock 'n' Roll and some 'Pop-Rock' Abba/Simon & G, etc.)

I've got a Warwick Streamer LX and I'm really struggling to find 'that' sound- the warm, deep, thump without the excrutiatingly sharp highs, even through a Littlemark III and a 15" Markbass Traveller cab.

I've just ordered a 2010 MIA Standard 'P'.

Is the American Standard going to basically give me the sound I want 'straight out of the box', or will I need to:

1. Put Flats on? Will T/I Jazz be as good an option as any or are the La Bellas (like the Original 1954's) better for this genre ?

2. Change the pup to, say, a SD SPB-1 or APB-2 (or any other)?

3. Change the pots/output jack/capacitor and shield the bass?

I'm really hoping the answer is that I will get the sound I want (and am missing from my Wick) with the 'P' as in comes, with, maybe, the addition of some flats, because I don't really want to have to start messing with a brand new instrument that cost this much....

I'm completely new to Fender, so I would really value the benefit of everyone's experience.

Thank you.


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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:17 am
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You should be able to get that sound you're looking for on a P-bass with flatwound strings. T-I's have a good rep, but are very expensive. If you don't have a problem with the cost, go for it. If you do, LaBellas are a good cheaper alternative. There are many decent brands of flatwounds out there you might want to give a try. It's likely that will be all you'll need to get the sound your after.That, and the right amp.

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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:15 am
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Quote:
Is the American Standard going to basically give me the sound I want 'straight out of the box'


It sure should! I was a rounds user for years, a few short years ago I switched to flats, although my main player now has rounds.
I have two MIM Classic '50s P's .... one with flats the other with rounds.

By the time I tweak my amp knobs, my basses all sound about the same.

Course, new rounds will be a bit noisy, bright at first ..... flats are too, but lose it more quickly.

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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:25 am
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That's why I asked if you played Country, my friend!! :)

That and because there seems to be a general conspiracy against us, because I'm struggling hugely to find many tabs (and ANY tab books) on this genre....!!


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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:27 am
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Quote:
That's why I asked if you played Country, my friend!!


I thought so .... I saw this thread after.

What's kinda killin' me is ..... newer country songs have been using FIVE string basses. Oh the horror! :lol:

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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:48 pm
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WELCOME TO THE FORUM REDLAWMAN!

Bathead wrote:
You should be able to get that sound you're looking for on a P-bass with flatwound strings. T-I's have a good rep, but are very expensive. If you don't have a problem with the cost, go for it. If you do, LaBellas are a good cheaper alternative. There are many decent brands of flatwounds out there you might want to give a try. It's likely that will be all you'll need to get the sound your after.That, and the right amp.



I would not modify any made in USA bass that has not been previously modified beyond strings if I could help it. It kills resale value. The new USA basses I believe come with ceramic caps in them which are the same as the 50's and 60's basses. For years they put poly caps in them, but they now come with ceramics so no mods would be required for an era correct tone. The Seymour Duncan Antiquity or a custom Lindy Fralin would be the way to go if you needed a pickup change, but I'm pretty sure you won't. Shielding should be unnecessary as the single coil pickups are wired up to humbuck. I would not change a single thing on the new USA P-bass but the strings.

Part of your issue is that passive second generation P-bass pickups sound different from about any other bass pickup, even other passive pickups. Most (if not all) of the recordings you seek to emulate were made on a P-Bass. Some were made with a Gibson, but mostly Fender P-bass. Once yours arrives you'll see that it sounds very different from the passive humbucker pickups on your Warwick.

First thing to consider is the AMP EQ. On that amp you'll want to crank the vintage loudspeaker emulation (VLE) knob about wide open, crank the bass way up to about 4 O'clock or beyond if speaker can take it, set the mids somewhere BELOW 12 O'clock and the highs about 9 O'clock at the MOST and tweak from there. Just barely crack the tone knob on the instrument from full bass and TURN DOWN THE VOLUME ON THE INSTRUMENT just a hair.

Now, that MODERN cab you have is rear ported which tends to make it sound less gutsy than a front ported cab and there is nothing you can do about that, but there is something you certainly CAN do and that is TURN THE CAB'S PIEZO TWEETER OFF! They didn't put tweeters or horns in amps until way after the tone you are seeking. If you can not turn it completely off either get a cab with no horn or tweeter or have a tech install a pot or switch on your cab so that you can turn the tweeter off.

Two other things that would help you get to this tone is compression and amp emulation. A good compressor like Aphex Punch Factory or EBS MultiComp will even things out. I prefer the Aphex because it is simpler to operate and works great and sounds pretty good. For vintage amp emulation something like a Tech 21 SansAmp Bass Driver or a Line 6 Bass Pod will do wonders toward the goal of 50's 60's country...or 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's anything for that matter.

If you decide to go with both an amp emulator and a compressor, PUT THE COMPRESSOR FIRST in the chain. Plug the bass directly into the compressor, then plug the compressor into any other pedals or other outboard gear. Otherwise the compressor will pull up the hiss from the amp emulator when you are not playing.

So far as strings go, flats are hard to find around here. So I usually special order them.

I can recommend the GHS 3050 REGULARS, but they will need a little age on them. The Fender 9050M's are also a decent choice but to me sound brighter out of the box and I prefer the feel of the GHS. I've tried both and made up my own mind about what I liked better. The Fender and the GHS are probably way cheaper than the other flats you are considering, but I really like the GHS personally. The Fenders are good too..

The GHS 3050 Regulars are HARD TO FIND but it is worth looking for them. JUSTSTRINGS.COM is one of the few online sources.

For the sound you say you are seeking, I can not recommend TI JF344 Jazz Flats at all, which so far as I know is the only Thomastik-Infeld flatwound bass set. For pop/some modern R&B/Jazz/modern country they are just great. It is nearly impossible to get that 50's Tic-Tack sound or Jamerson/Dunn Motown/Memphis 60's thump with them either. They are called JAZZ flats for a reason. They sound like no other flatwound I've ever used, which I think has a lot to do with the super low tension and a different core design. They really are only about 8 dollars more (street price) than the Labella 760M's these days. I just checked.

Fender 9050M, GHS PRECISION Flats (REGULAR 3050's) or Labella 760M (aka "The Jamerson Set" or "Original 1954" or "1954 OLDIE SET") which you mentioned will get you closer eventually, but even these strings will need some age on them. Jamerson and Dunn didn't change strings very offen. Jamerson only when one broke.

The Labella 760M's were what most people were using back then. WARNING! The Labellas 760M's and the 760M5 set for 5 string basses are NOT for body through stringing. I don't body through string ANY flatwound string based on my unfortunate experience with Labella 760M's before they started putting warning stickers on the packages and I was buying set after set due broken strings since my Telecaster Bass was body through stringing only. I just came to expect them to break at the bend in back of the saddle in about 2 to 3 weeks. I got tired of buying new strings. Long before they put warnings on them I had already switched to Rotosound which didn't sound as good to me but didn't break either.

Flats I do currently use:

A- Thomastik-JF344 Jazz Flats on an Active Ibanez SRX700 neck through top loaded. Awesome for pop and rock. Lots of sustain, sound more like groundwounds than flats. Never found another string that sounds like them or that has such low tension. The E string is so floppy that it takes getting used to if you are a finger style player especially when switching to a bass set up with them after playing another higher tension string during gigs as you will tend to OVERPLAY the Jazz Flats. The JF344's last for YEARS. No kidding. Excellent string but with a very unique sound that doesn't imitate old school very well. There is nothing else that feels or sounds like them. A wonderful string, but not right for the tone you seek.

B- GHS 3025 LIGHT Precision Flats. I have these on an Ibanez TRB70 P/J setup top loaded. Play this thing at home an awful lot. These strings have a modern sound when new and plenty of sustain. They have medium tension and are a lot of fun to play. GHS makes the SMOOTHEST FEELING FLATS I've ever used. However for the 50's 60's country stuff the 3025 set may still be too bright. New they are very bright but will mellow a bit over time like all flats do.

C- GHS 3050 REGULAR Precision Flats. On a Fender 51 Reissue P-Bass TOP loaded through a Leo Quan BAIII bridge. These are medium on the bottom and heavy on the top .055/.070/.090/.105. These sound a lot like the Labella 760M's but have lower overall tension, are easier to play and are a hair brighter with a bit more sustain. The Labella 760M's are a little lighter on the top and a little heavier on the bottom .052/.073/.095/.110.

The Labella 760M set has a silk layer between the core and the ribbon winding, so do the TI JF344's. The difference between the two is the core design and the wrap is applied differently. The Labella 760M's are noted as the highest tension string on the planet, they can be neck wreckers. James Jamerson's bass neck was so bowed nobody but him could play it. My 72 Jazz met a similar fate about 1974. However, with the graphite reinforced neck, you should be ok if you want to use them.

Too much info maybe, but I hope some of it helps you in your tone quest. I love the work of the top recording bassists of the 50's & 60's and I think I can nail it with my stuff. Passive P-Bass (I use both first and second generation designs), Aphex Punch Factory, SansAmp Bass Driver Deluxe. I can get a very 50's or very 60's sound direct into a mixer with no amp involved. Just takes some tweaking. Congrats on the new P-Bass RedLawMan! I am sure you'll love it.


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:34 am
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I'd just like to thank everone for their help and to say a particulary big 'Thank you' to BrotherDave.

No, not too much info' at all: I'm a complete beginner and only stared playing a week ago, having wanted to for the past 30 years! :)

Brother Dave- before I posted I went through the Forim for hours and read and took in just about every post you've ever made. Hugely helpful! Cheers.

If I could get a bass that sounded ANYTHING close to the 3 sound clips you posted (particularly the Obanez (?) with the TI's), I'd be delighted, I really would!!! I've lost the link to that: do you think you could post it again, please?

My Markbass Piezzo Tweeter...There is a switch, but I'm not sure which way does what! It's called -db, and anti=clockwise goes down to 16, and clockwise up to 0. At the moment, it's in the middle (factory set) at about 4.

OK. When it arrives, the bass stays exactly as it is and just gets 'flats'.

Right- Flats, actually La Bella flats because I quite fancy them I think.

MIA Standard ''P'. Original strings from the fractory are : 045/065/085/110.

Do I want:-

1. 760 F/S (045/065/085/105) or 760 F/L (043/060/082/105) or 760 F/M (049/069/089/109) ?

2. Can I use the 'Original 1954' (which I think I really want to)? Their gauges are 052/073/095/110, which are a bit heavier/fatter than the stock Fender strings.

3. Black Nylon Tape Wound (760N). What are these like please? Their gauges are 060/070/094/115 and therefore a lot fatter.

Is one of the above La Bella's a 'better' choice for me for my Country/50's,60's R 'N' R?


4. Am I right in thinking that I can string through the body with ALL of them except the Original 1954's and the Black Nylon ones?

5. Does it matter whether I string through the body or neck anyway? Will it make a difference to the sound? Is one method preferable to the other?

And finally: tension on the neck.

I understand that the string tension has to be far higher with these particular flats (unlike the T/I's on my Wick).
Is this a problem and or potentially damaging to the neck, etc. on my new MIA 'P'?

Many thanks (and sorry there's so much).


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:01 pm
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Hey REDLAWMAN: I've been using LaBella Deep Talkin' Bass flats on several of my fretless basses for years. I also have a set of the Labella nylon tapewounds (760N) on another fretless bass. Although I really like the 760N's they are probably not what you are looking for. They have more growl than some other flats, but that's not what you're looking for, I believe. But, you can use these on string-through basses (apparently) and even though they are of heavier gauge, they are of lower tension (or similar tension) due to the materials used.

Your best bet will be one of the 760F_ sets. In order of increasing tension, they are FL, FS and FM (light, standard, medium). The 760FL, 760FS and 760FM, with no other designation after the F_, corresponds to the standard long scale (what you want) in three various gauges. There will be some change in tension and overall balance between FL, FS and FM, but with the graphite neck, this shouldn't be any big issue (see last paragraph).

I would think that the 760FM set would give you some extra low end punch and although these will fight back a bit, being heavier, they will help prevent you from over-playing, which should reduce fret "clack".

That's my recommendation of these four sets (but heed that you should not use The 760 FL/FS/FM on string-through basses). Other opinions may help. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to post this here, but since it will help you, and I have no affiliation with them, if you happened to type the word "just" followed by the word "strings" into your search engine of choice, you'd find a good place to get these at a good price and you can compare gauges and all that. You want the Labella Deep Talkin' Bass Standard Long Scale 760FM (0.049 -0.109).

You may (or may not) need to have your truss rod tweaked to accomodate the heavier strings. A good tech can do this simply enough for short money; someday you'll want to be able to do this yourself once you become familiar with your instrument. Truss rod adjustments are done in small increments; like 1/8 turn with an observation period (hours to a day) to see how it affects neck angle. Use of the FS would likely require no adjustment.


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:38 pm
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I have LaBella's Deep Talkin' Bass tapes on my '51RI.
I had them on my '75 P ... I may put them back on.

BTW ... if anyone wants LaBella tapes for a string-through body, buy them from Carvin ..... they are longer and CHEAP!

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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:16 am
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I had Chromes on for about 6 months well I can't really say it nails the Vintage tone, well if its straight classic tone LaBella are the strings of choice, next to GHS Precision...

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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:43 am
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Great stuff guys. Many thanks indeed.


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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:57 am
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Eyecandy- did you mean that the La Bellas are a second choice behind the GHS Precisions or better than them please?


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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:25 am
I had good sounds with D'Addario chrome flats.


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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:40 pm
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Try muting the strings lightly with the edge of your picking hand right up against the edge of the bridge while plucking the string with a pick. That's a cool country/old rock sound called tic-tac, I think. Maybe that's the sound you are looking for?


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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:05 pm
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The only thing I might add to all this is...if you want that old you do need high tension flats and a bowed neck. A concave neck is definately crucial for the tone you're after. Kinda high action too. You'll never get that "bonk" without it. Oh, use a pick and palm mute.

Oh wait. This thread is long over.


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