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Post subject: Weak output from MIM pbass. Help?
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:58 pm
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My MIM Pbass has weak output, and i cant figure it out. I've changed the stock pickups to the 62 RI pickups, but that made little difference. The tone is good, but its not full enough. I can seem to get that thundering pbass tone that i want. Ive played squier basses and other MIM's that have a lot more output. I'm thinking something in the electronics is weak and needs replacement. I've heard that if you change the capacitor from 0.047uf to something higher like 0.068uf or 0.01uf it increases the bass response, but i've also heard that it only cuts more treble. Can someone help me out?


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:29 pm
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Changing the cap won't add more bass, it will only add more treble.

I just got a 62 RI pickup. It's a very aggressive pickup with tons of grind and hi mid. When people hear 60's tone they think "Oh great, that means really warm and basy." Remember~ people then played out of warm tube amps and used flatwound strings. The pickups from the 60's were quite aggressive and midrange heavy.

What you want is a modern voiced pickup, not a vintage voiced pickup... or at least not a 60's voicing. The difference is not just in the low end, but the midrange. The 62 RI has a lot of hi mid presence. An American Standard pickup instead has more of a low mid presence, which gives it the thicker and fuller tone.

I would suggest trying to track down an american pickup. You can also try to find a 57 reissue pickup, though fender doesn't sell those separately. The Seymour Duncan SPB-1 is apparently similar to the 57 Pickup, which is mellower than the 62.

I would not suggest the Duncan quarter pounds. Even though they have a lot of attack, they don't have enough midrange to really carry the tone in my opinion.


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:35 pm
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Oh, one more thing.

Never ever ever think of a pickup in terms of output. The statistic is virtually meaningless. All passive signals are going to be boosted once it hits the amp, so the original output level is meaningless.

The reason people talk about output is because sometimes output level = certain type of tone. But that's not always the case. The 62 reissue pickup is a great example of this: it has less output than most modern p pickups, yet the tone is far more aggressive.

It's a common misconception, and a common statistic that too many people obsess over. Choose a pickup based on how it sounds, not its output.


Hehehe, sorry, this is a pet peve of mine >.<


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:48 pm
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I love the tone of the pickup, i just want a fuller sound. Even with the stock pickups it lacked output compared to other mexi basses, so i think it has something to do with the electronics.


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:55 pm
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Yes, the 62 reissues sound fantastic. They're probably my favorite p bass pickups.

In terms of output... it couldn't hurt to get new electronics for it. It'll cost 25 bucks tops, assuming you're comfortable installing them yourself. It shouldn't be too hard.

I'd say if there is an issue, it's probably in the volume pot. It's possible that you got a bad pot: if gotten them before. It's a pain. But it wouldn't explain a lack of low end.... if anything it would mean less high end....

I honestly don't have a good explanation of why your bass is sounding like this. It really can't hurt to swap out all the pots for new ones.


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:01 pm
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Alright, thanks for your input. Any recomendations on what pots i should get?


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:39 pm
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Conaanthebarbarian wrote:
Alright, thanks for your input. Any recomendations on what pots i should get?


250k CTS pots. The fender pots are CTS, but I think they're a few bucks more. It can't hurt to replace the tone cap either. I recommend Orange Drop caps. You probably want a .047uf.

You can get all this stuff at http://www.guitarpartsresource.com/middle_bass.htm

Make sure you get standard pots, not metric!!!


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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:05 pm
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Are you comparing these basses on the same amp at the same settings? If so, then you for sure have an electronics issue somewhere and it would be easier and cheaper just to replace all the electronics except the pickup. I’d also replace the jack with a new Switchcraft jack.

My answer to your cap inquiry is that a modern P-Bass usually is already fairly bassy sounding compared to a Jazz Bass or a first generation Precision with a single-coil pickup. In my experience a 0.068 cap will filter more highs out than a stock 0.047 and make the instrument sound darker but it may still be usable for some people. When you mentioned a 0.01 I think you may have meant a 0.10. A 0.10 is way too dark for me. I did actually try a 0.10 in a first generation P-Bass for a few days and all that was left was thump and the instrument had no upper mids left at all. I went back to a 0.047.

I think the stock value works best for me, however feel free to try different values. You can just use alligator clip leads for temporary testing. When you find the value you like then make it permanent. I've tried everything from 0.018 to 0.1. I like something around .05 best in a Precision Bass.

As to what type of tone capacitor to buy, my first recommendation is a Sprague Vitamin-Q (or equivalent) Paper-In-Oil glass sealed and metal encased capacitor. If you can’t find a Sprague brand Vitamin-Q you can just one buy one of the other brands of Paper-In-Oil caps like Gudeman or Philco or Sylvania or even one of Soviet made caps. They are all built to the same military specs and are functional clones of the Vitamin-Q. Restrict your selection to 200 volt or less Paper-In-Oil caps due space considerations.

“Orange Drop” caps were recommended to you in another post. I do NOT recommend the Sprague POLYPROPYLENE type Orange Drop Caps! These Poly Orange Drops are the ones sold by most of the online parts dealers like the previously mentioned Guitar Parts Resource. I do buy parts there and while I have used Poly Orange Drops in the past I don't use Poly Orange Drops these days.

A better cap choice is the much harder to find Sprague MYLAR Orange Drop. The Mylar version actually costs a little less than Poly yet sounds way warmer with far less distortion. The Mylar Orange Drops are almost as clean and clear as a Paper-In-Oil Capacitor and I can only tell a smidge of difference in A/B testing. You can spot the Mylar Orange Drops easily because they are boxy looking compared to the roundish Poly Orange Drops. (The ONLY disadvantage to a Mylar cap is that they will fail at 212 degrees F/100 C. However if your bass gets to 212 degrees F it is probably on fire and you are going to have other problems besides just the cap going bad.)

Both the Paper-In-Oil Vitamin-Q type and the Sprague Mylar Orange Drops eliminate that unpleasing brittleness when you crank your tone control wide open. Some people actually like distorted highs or are just accustomed to the brittleness. These people might actually prefer the Poly Orange Drops. But, in my opinion if you are going to replace a stock Poly cap it makes no sense to put in another Poly cap when you could put in a better type cap altogether. For more on tone caps including a link to a good source for Paper-In-Oil and Mylar caps click the “REPLACEMENT/UPGRADE BASS PARTS” link on the webpage in my forum signature below.

Regarding pots, you have two choices on the 250K CTS pots. The choice is “Split-Shaft” or “Solid-Shaft.” I’d just buy two of whichever you have now. Your existing knobs probably won’t work as well, if at all, with a different type shaft. That means you’d wind up buying new knobs too, which of course you can certainly do for a few bucks. I prefer the solid shaft knobs that have the set screws, but that is just my personal preference and there is no tonal advantage whatsoever to solid shaft pots.

While the bass is partially disassembled for the electronics overhaul would be an opportune time to copper shield your bass. You can order the copper shielding supplies from the same place you get pots and wire for about $10 more and it is a good upgrade. My favorite upgrades on a passive bass are a Paper-In-Oil cap and copper shielding.

I use the vintage style cloth covered wire. It is easy to work with because you don’t have to strip it and it is very flexible. Just push the cloth covering back and solder. I also use the outer cover of the cloth wire to insulate the exposed leads on the capacitor in case it should happen to touch anything it shouldn’t.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:06 am
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I wouldn't write off poly caps so fast. First of all, the stock caps are ceramic, not polly. I recall you saying you thought they sounded virtually the same, but that hasn't been my experience. They sound similar when the tone pot is open, but with the tone down I find the polly sounds far smoother.

The reason I recommend the polly cap is because it is similar to what most people are used to, and since the poster desired more low end not less high end, I did not think a different cap was necessary. However I think it's good to show that there are different types of caps, not just cap values, out there that will yield different sorts of tone.

The fact is that some people (like myself) like grindy hi-mids (I'm assuming that's what you mean by 'distorted.') Upper mid grind is one of the most desirable and defining characteristic of the 62 RI pickup, and I think it's important to realize that you're gonna lose some of that with the PIO or mylar cap. The 62 RI basses use .1uf caps, so the upper mid grind is lost in those basses, but the pickup is very aggressive and edgy.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:40 am
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Thanks for the helpful info guys, im going to try each cap to see what i like best, thye aren't that expensive. Brotherdave, you need to write a book.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:11 pm
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anubis16 wrote:
I wouldn't write off poly caps so fast. First of all, the stock caps are ceramic, not polly.


Fender went to all Poly caps for a while. Recently they’ve started using ceramics again in some instruments. They are cheaper. They’ve also reintroduced a 0.05 ceramic after for a great while using 0.047 Poly in all P-basses. So you would actually have to look. So far as I know Fender Japan is still using Polys, or at least was very recently. My 51 RI P-bass had a green Poly chicklet. So did my most recent MIM P-bass. As Fender has recently reintroduced ceramics to bass production, I guess you’d really have to look to see what you have.

anubis16 wrote:
I recall you saying you thought they sounded virtually the same, but that hasn't been my experience. They sound similar when the tone pot is open, but with the tone down I find the polly sounds far smoother.


Let me know where that post is located. I found this one: http://www.fender.com/community/forums/ ... noil+mylar
Also here: http://www.fender.com/community/forums/ ... noil+mylar

The tonal improvement with PIO caps is in the upper mids and highs. The lows are about the same. Mylar Orange Drops have much cleaner highs and mids than their Poly sisters.

The first post didn’t go into Mylar I don’t think. The Mylar Orange Drops sound ALMOST as good as PIO’s. Poly Orange Drops sound better than Ceramics to me also.

anubis16 wrote:
The reason I recommend the polly cap is because it is similar to what most people are used to, and since the poster desired more low end not less high end, I did not think a different cap was necessary. However I think it's good to show that there are different types of caps, not just cap values, out there that will yield different sorts of tone.

The fact is that some people (like myself) like grindy hi-mids (I'm assuming that's what you mean by 'distorted.') Upper mid grind is one of the most desirable and defining characteristic of the 62 RI pickup, and I think it's important to realize that you're gonna lose some of that with the PIO or mylar cap. The 62 RI basses use .1uf caps, so the upper mid grind is lost in those basses, but the pickup is very aggressive and edgy.


Like I said, people who like or are accustomed to the distortion in the upper mids will be happier with Poly. For certain music it is very desirable for sure. For people who want a pure tone with no artifacts Poly would be the third choice. If you pickup has a ton of high end, such as a Jazz bass or single-coil first generation P-Bass, the difference a PIO or Mylar cap will make is amazing. If when cranking the tone knob wide open and you way up on the scale on the D & G strings your instrument sounds like an ice pick being dragged over a blackboard, you might want something smoother. I could not crank the tone on my ’51 RI (stock Poly cap) until I put the PIO cap in. Like I said, some people want a little upper distortion or “grind” as you call it. For some types of music a little distortion is desirable. If you don’t use a horn, you may not notice the brittleness.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:29 pm
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Just a little side note, whats the base on the 62 RI pickup for? Just grounding and support or what?


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:25 pm
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Conaanthebarbarian wrote:
Just a little side note, whats the base on the 62 RI pickup for? Just grounding and support or what?


Just grounding


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:33 pm
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Also to brother dave.

The post is I think from the second link you showed, and again, that's just for memory, so I could be remembering your words wrong. Doesn't matter really.

I think you do have a very valid point about mylar/PIO vs. Polly. However I think it really just comes down to personal preference. I suppose I should have mentioned the mylar in my previous response as another good option. I assumed he would want grindy upper mids because it is sort of the distinguishing factor of the 62 RI, and he seemed to like the tone. However, there are certainly circumstances/genres where this is not desirable.


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Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:49 pm
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I just wanted to update you guys, i gutted the electronics and replaced them with CTS pots, a switchcraft jack, and an orange drop cap. It made a HUGE difference, and brought out the best of the '62 pickup. thanks for your help guys.


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