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Which of these pickups sound like the 60's?
Fender Original Vintage 50%  50%  [ 3 ]
Basslines SPB-1 33%  33%  [ 2 ]
Antiquity II 17%  17%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 6
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Post subject: Closest to the 60's sound
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:56 am
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Which pickups sound more like the original 60's P-bass more like Motown, Duck Dunn old school tone


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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:18 am
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Any of them will do the job, as will most standard P-style pickups. It's also to do with strings and amp, so heavy LaBella flats and an Ampeg B-15 would probably help also!
:)

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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:53 am
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If there was such a thing as a Duck Dunn pickup available today, it would probably be the ‘57 Precision Bass Split Single-Coil Pickup used in the American Vintage '57 P-Bass.

Donald Duck Dunn bought two stock 1957 Fender P-basses the same day. One with rosewood neck and one with maple. These were used on most, if not all of his historic recording sessions and even for live appearances. Mr. Dunn loaned one of these '57 P-basses to Bay-Kays bassist James Alexander for the 1967 Otis Redding tour. Redding, four Bar-Kays members, Redding's road manager & the pilot died when the chartered plane crashed into Lake Monona on the way to the Madison, Wisconsin show December 10, 1967. Mr. Dunn's '57 bass was on the Redding charter and never recovered.

Whether it is true or not, I like to think there is a 57 American Vintage Reissue P-bass precisely because of Duck Dunn and a 62 American Vintage RI P-bass only because of James Jamerson. Whether or not that is the real reason for each American Vintage P model that is what I like to think.

Instead of the Labella 760M flats, may I suggest a lower tension alternative yielding practically the same sound without killing your necks? The GHS Precision Flatwound 3050 regular set in .055 to .105 gauge costs less than half what the Labellas cost. I used Labella 760's for about 20 years before finding the GHS Precision Flats when they were recommended by another bassist as a great lower tension alternative to the Jamerson set. I played his bass and he was right. They are a great vintage sounding string and way easier to play. I use them on my 51 RI P-bass.

The B-15 amp sounds killer but is underpowered for anything short of miking live or recording. The original B-15 had no direct output either. Many of the recordings routinely attributed to a B-15, especially at Motown, were actually done direct into the board. Dunn used a B-15 a lot at Stax.

There are several good B-15 emulator programs and pedals. I like 'em but a real deal B-15 is sort of a dinosaur now.


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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:15 am
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Wow, so 57's are more associated to Dunn's
and 62's are with Jamerson's

yeah B-15 are extinct or too pricey nowadays.. =(

so anyways we can conclude that Antiquity I sounds close to the 57's and Antiquity II on the 62's?


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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:43 pm
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eyecandy wrote:

so anyways we can conclude that Antiquity I sounds close to the 57's and Antiquity II on the 62's?


Well if an Antiquity I is like a 57 Fender American Vintage P and the Antiquity II sounds like a '62 Fender American Vintage P....then the answer would be yes. Can't say for sure if they do. But would be in the ballpark.


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Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:13 am
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I left some of the story out about Bar-Kays bassist James Alexander, so I'd better clear that up. He was not on the tour charter plane that crashed, but Duck Dunn's bass was on the plane. The plane held eight people counting the pilot. Seven died. Bar-Kays trumpet player Ben Cauley was the lone survivor. Mr. Alexander was not on board the charter but was instead on a commercial flight. The Bar-Kays rotated who flew commercial as it was very inconvenient and somewhat lonely. It just happened to be his turn to fly commercial that day. After Mr. Cauley recovered, he and Mr. Alexander rebuilt the band. Among the new members was Willie "Too Big" Hall on drums who would later play drums for the Blues Brothers recording sessions, both Blues Brothers films and numerous TV appearances. The Bar-Kays recorded and toured continuously thereafter through 1989 when it was decided to take a break from the grind. The band was reformed two years later but Ben Cauley decided not to return leaving James Alexander as the lone original member.


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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:21 am
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"Donald Duck Dunn bought two stock 1957 Fender P-basses the same day. One with rosewood neck and one with maple. "

Brotherdave, there were no rosewood board Fenders (guitar or basses) at all in 57...Chuck Rainey also said he'd acquired a NOS 57 Precision in 61, it had been on the wall for 4 years apparently, but again, how? Earliest rosewood board P is supposedly 1959...

Also, one of the earlier pictures of the MGs shows DD with an SCPB with the bridge cover reversed, sunburst, so 54-56 ish.

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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:36 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Instead of the Labella 760M flats, may I suggest a lower tension alternative yielding practically the same sound without killing your necks? The GHS Precision Flatwound 3050 regular set in .055 to .105 gauge costs less than half what the Labellas cost. I used Labella 760's for about 20 years before finding the GHS Precision Flats when they were recommended by another bassist as a great lower tension alternative to the Jamerson set. I played his bass and he was right. They are a great vintage sounding string and way easier to play. I use them on my 51 RI P-bass.

brotherdave,

If I'm reading this correctly, the GHS Precision Flatwound 3050 set is lighter tension than the LaBella 760M. Correct?
How do they compare to the LaBella 760FL set tension-wise? The 760FL are my new favorites, but I like heavier guage D & G strings.
Thanks


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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:42 pm
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Telebass wrote:
Brotherdave, there were no rosewood board Fenders (guitar or basses) at all in 57...Chuck Rainey also said he'd acquired a NOS 57 Precision in 61, it had been on the wall for 4 years apparently, but again, how? Earliest rosewood board P is supposedly 1959...

Also, one of the earlier pictures of the MGs shows DD with an SCPB with the bridge cover reversed, sunburst, so 54-56 ish.


TELEBASS, that is a very good point about both not being '57's. Which is what I've thought about from time to time as well because they looked so different.

So, I went back and checked my source on that recollection, which was based on what I read a long time ago in Tim Tindall’s book on Mr. Dunn. I've learned I apparently have senile dementia. In that book "What Duck Done," here is exactly what Tim Tindall actually wrote in the narrative addendum on page I is, "Duck has always played "stock" Fender Precision basses with the string mute removed. He recalls using two 58 Precisions while still at Stax; one with a rosewood neck, the other maple."

Yep it says '58 right there. My error. It also says “stock” doesn’t it? Don't know how I got '57 out of that. I have not looked at this information in many years. This book is nearly 15 years old. I went searching for it this morning and found it along with some LP’s I’d been trying to find for months. (And of course the models more correctly would be called 57/58 and 58/59 since model years ran July 1 to June 30 the following year so was he meaning 57/58 or 58/59?)

I've also heard that rosewood was not available until the 1959/1960 model year and that same year the aluminum pickguards changed to celluloid. As anyone who looks at photos of Duck Dunn playing in the 60's knows, one of his basses had an aluminum pickguard on the maple board one which would make it pre-1959/60 for sure. The second bass has a celluloid pickguard on a sunburst body and this is the one he seemed to be playing in many photos made in the studio. This is the one he used on most TV appearances also including the Otis Redding’s “Fa-Fa-Fa-Fa-Fa-Fa-Fa-Fa-Fa.”

I don't know for sure, but the book’s statement that they were both 1958 stock models seems to conflict with the photographic records. But the book says he “recalls” and recollections, as just proven by my error of being one year off, are clouded by time.

The book goes on to say he loaned one to James Alexander and it was lost in the Redding crash, but the book doesn’t say which one though.

Tim Tindall's book is based on interviews with Mr. Dunn in New York in July 1994 and is all I have to go on. I'd really like to find more definitively on the subject. But since nobody cares but a few bass fanatics we may never know for sure.

Nothing on the P-bass between 57/58 & 58/59 changed anyway, so they are essentially the same specs. When the rosewood officially became a “STOCK” option in 59/60 the aluminum pickguard was retired. Therefore they both could not be the same year model.

Fender was noted for doing custom modifications in the early days for famous artists and incorporating their ideas into future models. However it is doubtful that Duck got a custom one with next year’s rosewood and celluloid since he would have been 17 years old at the time playing in the Royal Spades. It is equally unlikely that one would wind up hanging in a guitar store as new old stock. I’m not saying impossible but unlikely.

Regarding the photo of Duck Dunn wearing a first generation P-bass, it is also in this book. In case you can not read the caption below, it says, “…early Stax publicity shot of the M.G.’s…(left to right) Duck, Booker T., Cropper and Al Jackson, Jr. ..Duck pictured here with Lewis Steinberg’s P-Bass.”

Image

Ok some may be wondering, who is Lewis Steinberg and why is Duck Dunn posing with his bass? Lewis (Lewie) Steinberg was the first and only bassist for the MG’s from 1962 until 1964 and was inducted into the R&R HOF with the rest of the MG’s in 1992 and awarded a Lifetime Achievement Grammy as an MG’s member in 2007. It was Mr. Steinberg playing on “Green Onions” for example.

Mr. Dunn left the Mar-Keys in 1962 to become the first white member of the Largos (Ben Branch’s Memphis based big band.) The Largos while largely forgotten now, actually was a very important band in Memphis that was all for showcasing young talent. One of the Mar-Keys organists, Issac Hayes, had previously been with the Largos before joining the Mar-Keys. The Largos worked nightly as the house band at Curry’s Club Tropicana in the New Chicago section of northern Memphis and they were said to have been one of the best live big bands of the day.

During Mr. Dunn’s two year stint with the Largos the Mar-Keys fractured into three separate Stax recording acts: The Memphis Horns, The Packers and the Booker T & The MG’s. All the other original members of the MG’s except Lewie Steinberg were former Mar-Keys.

For part of ’64 the MG’s technically on paper had two bassists simultaneously. Duck Dunn who was coming in and Lewie Steinberg who was finishing up the “Soul Dressing” project before leaving.

So it was Steinberg’s bass in the photo, but I can only speculate about why it was used in the photo. I’m guessing this photo was made immediately after Duck agreed to join the MG’s in ‘64 because their booking agent needed to update the press kit. Mr. Steinberg would still have been working on the MG’s “Soul Dressing” sessions at that time, so his first generation P-Bass would have been at the Stax Studio when this publicity photo was made but was no longer gigging with the band. Apparently for whatever reason, Duck did not have one of his own basses with him, so he just borrowed Mr. Steinberg’s for the photo merely because it was handier than going to get one of his. If Mr. Dunn’s two basses were at the club, it was a 20 to 25 minute drive from the Stax Studio to Curry’s and back again in light traffic if you really hustled. The photo was probably made in daytime and the club would probably have been locked up anyway. Maybe Duck didn’t know he’d need one that day and didn’t bring one. Who knows?

Other things that I found in Mr. Tindall's book today that might help people who are looking for a Duck Dunn type tone a little bit:

“the amp…Ampeg B-15 was used on the Stax recordings and most live dates. Occasionally Duck used a Kustom bass amp w/ 2-15”, which he actually preferred over the Ampeg. The usual settings would be bass on 5 with the treble “cranked”. Although Duck claims to have “…hated the sound of the Ampeg.. it sounded good in the control room…”

(Note from BD: Funny, but anyone else remember this as being very close to what James Jamerson said about the B-15? I’ve seen photos of Mr. Jamerson playing out with a Kustom amp too.)

“Duck employs the basic right-hand two-finger technique, occasionally he’ll use three fingers when his “…hand gets tired..” Generally, Duck anchors his right hand by resting his thumb on the pick-up, although I’ve seen him “whomp” on this E string. (Duck) “…I can’t play light..just can’t do it..” In fact Duck plays so hard at times he’ll pull his bass out of tune. Although Duck claims he doesn’t play hammer-ons, “If they want hammer-ons they don’t call Duck..”, I feel it’s the best way to execute all grace-notes in this book.”

“Duck sometimes utilizes his fingernails to achieve a pick-like effect. He cites “You Don’t Know Like I Know” as one such example. Duck’s approach to note selection cannot be seen as chromatic since he basically plays chordal tones. However, when he does choose chromatic movement, it’s to great effect and usually when playing descending lines, ie, “Time Is Tight”, “Grab This Thing”, “Walking the Dog”, etc.”

“Duck…(words of advice to bass players)….”Listen..listen to the drummer..if the drums and bass are together..they make everybody sound good…”


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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:53 pm
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I'm not a bassist but I sure enjoyed reading your post brotherdave!! Thanks!


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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:17 pm
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zod wrote:
brotherdave,

If I'm reading this correctly, the GHS Precision Flatwound 3050 set is lighter tension than the LaBella 760M. Correct?
How do they compare to the LaBella 760FL set tension-wise? The 760FL are my new favorites, but I like heavier guage D & G strings.
Thanks


Yes the GHS 3050 Precision Flats set is lower tension than the Labella 760M for sure and fret way easier. They feel better because they are smoother too.

The GHS 3050's feel is so smooth it honestly feels like you are playing a solid metal rod. I especially get the rod sensation after playing Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Flats on my active and then picking up the 51 RI with the GHS 3050's on it. They are the smoothest feeling string I’ve ever used bar none. Absolutely glassy.

I only tried the 760FL set ONCE for a very short time 10 years ago and couldn't wait to get them off and put the 760M's back on. I can't say how the 760FL's compare tension wise to the GHS 3050 Precision Flats because it was really so long ago. I hadn’t ever tried a GHS set other than Boomers until I was shown the GHS Precision set on a friend’s bass.

The GHS 3050 Regulars feel very similar tension wise to a stock set of Fender bass strings in tension. The very light 3025's are a great flat string for funk.

I know the Labella 760FL set was lower tension than the Labella 760M's but sounded thinner to me and had less thud.

The GHS 3050 set actually comes in a couple of gauges designated M3050 and 3050. The M3050’s are 45/65/85/105.

The set I’m using now and like better are the big 3050 ones called REGULAR and are 55/70/90/105. Yeah they are way bigger on the D & G strings.

In comparison the Labella 760M’s are 52/73/95/110. Labella 760FL’s are 43/60/82/104.

As for what the GHS 3050 regulars sound like. They are stainless so they are a little bright but have a real big bottom so you can cut the highs a bunch if you want.


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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:11 pm
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“Duck…(words of advice to bass players)….”Listen..listen to the drummer..if the drums and bass are together..they make everybody sound good…”

I agree on this one.. Drum and Bass coordination ^_^ and especially with popping and slapping too and/or groovy finger style funk..


Are Fender stainless Flatwounds any good? or how about D'addario and Ernie Ball Flats?

what do u think brotherdave?


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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:00 am
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brotherdave wrote:
zod wrote:
brotherdave,

If I'm reading this correctly, the GHS Precision Flatwound 3050 set is lighter tension than the LaBella 760M. Correct?
How do they compare to the LaBella 760FL set tension-wise? The 760FL are my new favorites, but I like heavier guage D & G strings.
Thanks


Yes the GHS 3050 Precision Flats set is lower tension than the Labella 760M for sure and fret way easier. They feel better because they are smoother too.

The GHS 3050's feel is so smooth it honestly feels like you are playing a solid metal rod. I especially get the rod sensation after playing Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Flats on my active and then picking up the 51 RI with the GHS 3050's on it. They are the smoothest feeling string I’ve ever used bar none. Absolutely glassy.

I only tried the 760FL set ONCE for a very short time 10 years ago and couldn't wait to get them off and put the 760M's back on. I can't say how the 760FL's compare tension wise to the GHS 3050 Precision Flats because it was really so long ago. I hadn’t ever tried a GHS set other than Boomers until I was shown the GHS Precision set on a friend’s bass.

The GHS 3050 Regulars feel very similar tension wise to a stock set of Fender bass strings in tension. The very light 3025's are a great flat string for funk.

I know the Labella 760FL set was lower tension than the Labella 760M's but sounded thinner to me and had less thud.

The GHS 3050 set actually comes in a couple of gauges designated M3050 and 3050. The M3050’s are 45/65/85/105.

The set I’m using now and like better are the big 3050 ones called REGULAR and are 55/70/90/105. Yeah they are way bigger on the D & G strings.

In comparison the Labella 760M’s are 52/73/95/110. Labella 760FL’s are 43/60/82/104.

As for what the GHS 3050 regulars sound like. They are stainless so they are a little bright but have a real big bottom so you can cut the highs a bunch if you want.

Thanks you brotherdave. I ordered the 3050's.


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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:30 pm
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eyecandy wrote:

Are Fender stainless Flatwounds any good? or how about D'addario and Ernie Ball Flats?

what do u think brotherdave?


I've tried two Fender flats. The Fender 9050M set sounds and feels better to me than the 9050L set however both are brighter sounding to me than Labella 760M or the GHS 3050 (which is also stainless steel.) Also I think the tension feels a little higher on the Fender's 9050 M than on the GHS M3050 set but I've not actually compared them side by side. That was just my perception and I didn't try them back to back either.

If all anyone was looking for was low tension then the TI JF344 JAZZ FLATS are the lowest tension flat I've ever used and I like them for some things and keep them on an active bass. However I think you really need more tension in the strings than is present in the TI JF344's to get the thump of the 60's R&B greats. I can't make them sound like Dunn or Jamerson. They sound more like Ray Brown would if he was on an electric bass.

I have never used any D'Addario flats. Never tried the Ernie Ball flats either. I do like the Ernie Ball Slinky rounds and used them before switching to TI EB344 PowerBass strings about 5 years ago on my number 1. If I suddenly could not get the GHS Regular 3050's I'd probably try the Ernie Balls. The only flats I've ever used were the Fenders, Labellas, Rotosound, Thomastiks & GHS Precisions. I also tried the nylon coated Fender strings once and wow was that an interesting sound on a fretted bass, but the frets chew up the coating pretty quickly. If I had a fretless I'd use them I think. They really sounded warm and thumpy.

I remember trying the Rotosound Swing 77 set about 15 years ago and I recall they were about the same tension as the Labellas but they do sound really good. They seemed to go dead pretty quickly but they might have changed them and maybe have better life now.

If I was sure I had a really good neck, like on the new Fender USA stuff I'd be less hesitant to use a real high tension string like the Labella 760M's.

Basically in the old days you were pretty much stuck with what was at the local music stores. Nobody around here carries Thomastik strings at all. Even at the huge Guitar Center in Charlotte they don't stock but about two different flatwound bass string sets. Fortunately there are online string specialty dealers that carry any string you have ever heard of!


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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:58 pm
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ZOD, if you are interested in hearing the GHS3050's through my set up here just click CONTACT on the main menu top right of the web page in my signature and email me. I just recorded a demonstration of "6-3-4-5-7-8-9" with those strings on a '51 P-RI with Lindy Fralin split coil pup, Vitamin-Q Cap, Fender Deluxe Bridge and no muting direct-in from my pedal board. The file is under 3MB. Once I get your request, I'll email it to you. I didn't play it perfect, but at least you can get the idea of the tone of the strings. Not saying they'll sound this way for you but showing how they sound for me. Anyone else wants to hear, just let me know too.


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