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Post subject: difference of Mexican and American Electronics?
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:18 am
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I have a mexican precision bass, i've changed the pickup to the 62 reissue pickup which helped improve the sound greatly, but it still doesnt sound as full as i would like it to. Would gutting out the electronics and having them re-wired by a professional with higher quality parts make a difference?


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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:39 pm
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It's my experience that MIM and MIA use the exact same CTS pots. So aside from the pickups, the rest of the electronics are indistinguishable.


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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:30 pm
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So the real question is why doesn’t your bass sound just like a USA ’62 Reissue with the USA 62 RI Pickup installed?

The major reason is that the construction itself is different. It has nothing to do with the skill of the people at Ensenada. The major construction difference that changes the tone is that most MIA regular production basses have 2 or 3 piece bodies depending on the finish type while most MIM regular production bodies have 5 to 7 piece bodies depending on finish type. The more glue joints in the body blank the less inherent resonance an instrument seems to me to possess.

The necks use different truss rod systems but the neck woods are pretty much the same so I don’t think there is much tonal difference in the necks but I’ve never tried swapping them around so that isn’t a proven fact. Yes, the hardware is often different between USA and MIM but I think this has very little if any impact on the actual tone of the instrument compared to the wood. When you take the USA versus MIM pickup comparison out of the equation as you have already done then it all comes down to the body blank.

Unless there is some sort of defect in the pots or wiring I do not think there would be enough of an improvement to justify the expense and effort of gutting all the electronics and starting all over. Because as Powered Toast Man posted while I was typing this up, the pots on the MIM P-basses I've messed around with are the same CTS pots used in the US models. So there is no benefit to changing them unless one is defective or noisy. This may have changed in the past couple of years as I’ve not looked at anything but pre-2007 ones. Some specialized pots, such as no-load pots, do provide a tonal advantage but only when the pot is set in the bypassed no-load position.

Unless there is some issue with the jack replacing with a new Switchcraft jack would yield no tonal benefit either since the same jack is in there too.

Frankly, I’ve never found a way to make a MIM sound just like a USA bass but some things do make any bass sound better. Before I list mods I’ve tried, it is important to emphasize that any modification to a collector class instrument has a negative impact on the value. On a vintage instrument I’d leave it the way it came unless it is broken, ailing or failing. Even if you think you can put the original pickup or capacitor back in before selling it, an appraiser can tell a fresh solder joint from a vintage one and that would mean a mark-off. Even if the original pickup dies it can be re-wound which will be less of a mark-off than putting in a new pickup. If value is important to you (and I’ve learned that to some people value is the ONLY thing that matters) you will not want to do any modifications on a vintage instrument other than changing the strings.

On the other hand, MIM basses are a great platform for mods! The following things do make a difference in how any passive bass sounds to me. They are listed in the order that I think provides a tonal benefit related to the expense.

1. String selection makes the #1 difference in tone on both active & passive basses. The type of tone you are after is tied directly to what type strings you should choose. There is no shortage of string discussions already on the Forum.
2. In recent production passive basses, replacing the stock polypropylene tone capacitor with a Sprague Vitamin-Q 200 volt 0.047 Paper in Oil capacitor (or any glass sealed & metal wrapped equivalent spec Paper-In-Oil cap) is a relatively inexpensive, fairly easy & quick surefire tonal improvement. It is the first mod and sometimes the only mod I do to any passive bass. The result is a far smoother & cleaner tone, especially in the upper midrange where stock poly caps often sound harsh, brittle or even distorted. The improvement is most apparent when using a cab with a horn. See: http://brotherdave.com/add_parts.htm for more information on tone capacitors and the link to Axegrinderz, which is the only capacitor supplier I have been using for over two years other than the caps I snagged in eBay auctions.

3. Pickup selection is a relatively expensive modification and unlike a Poly to PIO cap swap which is a certain tonal improvement, you really don’t know if a new pickup will sound better until you swap them out. So, unless you want a tone that the stock pickup just can not produce or you are looking for improved noise rejection or a higher output there really is no need to change pickups unless you just WANT to change them. Some people buy custom overwound pickups thinking that higher output equals better tone. While overwinding does make a pickup a bit louder, you are sacrificing upper mids for a little bit of an increase in volume. I think you’d be better off to just turn the amp up than to handicap yourself by restricting the audio range of the bass. Stock winds with alnico poles have a more full range sound and are the best all around choice for me personally since I can dial back the tone control to kill upper mids when I want mud but still have some upper mids available when I need them. For First-Generation P-basses and Jazz basses that both come stock with single coil pickups the innovation of split coil wound custom pickups are an excellent upgrade to reduce RFI and hum and I think the added expense in this case is definitely worth it. Just don’t expect it to sound like a single coil. The split coil pickup on my ’51 Precision was a tremendous improvement noise wise. Meanwhile other pickup swaps have ranged from maybe the tone is a little better to I can’t tell for sure…to eventually putting the original pup back in because it sounded better before the swap.

4. If your bass is dead quiet even with the tone cranked full-on then you won’t need to do this! But, if your bass is sensitive to RFI I highly recommend you do a shielding job on it. How does shielding a bass effect tone? It enables you to crank the tone knob wide open instead of rolling it back to mask hum and buzz. Second generation P-basses are inherently quieter due to the split coil humbucking effect but will still benefit some especially when used in very single coil unfriendly environments like a stage with neon beer signs around it. Shielding is almost mandatory on any single coil bass or guitar. Copper shielding and grounding the control cavity, pickup cavity and back of the pickguard protects against radio frequency interference and greatly reduces hum. Yes you can use aluminum instead of copper, but you can not make solder connections on aluminum so I wouldn’t bother since you have to tape the ground wires to the aluminum and that really isn’t a permanent solution at all. You can get the self adhesive copper tape and sheeting to shield 1 bass for about $13 to $15 plus shipping today from most of the larger online guitar parts dealers. For more on shielding read “SHIELD YOUR BASS” on this page and also find links to full instructions on how to do it yourself: http://brotherdave.com/add_maint.htm

The following two modifications are often done in the name of tone, but actually only seemed to add sustain for me. I see sustain and tone as two different attributes. Maybe some people see them both as tonal components but I see sustain as the same tone lasting longer.

1. Upgrading to a high mass bridge. Sorry, but I don’t hear much of an improvement in tone but some sustain improvement. The most overlooked benefit of the high mass bridge is that some of them allow for a wider range of saddle travel adjustment so a bass will intonate correctly with a wider variety of string gauges than on stock bridges.

2. Replacing the stock nut with a real bone nut or a brass nut. If you don’t have experience doing nut replacement you have to find a skilled experienced person who does and you will probably have to pay them to do it. Again there might be a slight improvement in sustain but only when the string is plucked unfretted! I haven’t heard what I’d say is a concrete tonal benefit and added sustain only when the string is played open is just not enough of a benefit to justify the expense.

For wiring I use the cloth covered vintage type because it is low-loss due the high silver content, is very flexible and is very easy to work with since you don’t have to strip it but just cut it and push the cloth back. In any mod where you are soldering in the tone circuit, use high quality silver solder! If you are a soldering rookie see “SOLDERING IS A SKILL” here for some really helpful links: http://brotherdave.com/add_maint.htm


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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:31 pm
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This is why I love ya brother dave.

I agree about the tone capacitor. I put an orange drop polly cap in my jazz bass, and the tone sounded amazingly smoother. And the PIO caps are even smoother than what I got!

To add about the pickups, the vintage pickups, such as the 62 RI have a fantastic hi-mid presence that really adds definition. A lot of modern pickups lean more toward the lo-mids, and lack some of the clarity in the hi-mids.

I do have to say that as far as some overwound pickups go, the custom shop overwound 60's do a good job at maintaining the hi-mids. IMO they give you the hi-mids of the vintage pickups with the lo-mids of modern pickups. And yes, output in the grand scheme of things is immaterial, especially for basses. I just love the overwound 60's for the tone, not for the output.


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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:34 pm
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Also to add to Brother Dave's point about MIM bodies, I think a lot of the loss in tone and resonance comes from the neck pocket. The neck pockets on MIA basses are very tight. (Fun fact: well made bolt on necks are more resonant than their set-neck counterparts).

However some (though not all) MIM basses can have very loose neck joints. I've been able to fit a medium pick between the neck and side of the joint of some MIM basses. That can't be good for resonance and tone.


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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:14 am
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anubis16 wrote:
Also to add to Brother Dave's point about MIM bodies, I think a lot of the loss in tone and resonance comes from the neck pocket. The neck pockets on MIA basses are very tight. (Fun fact: well made bolt on necks are more resonant than their set-neck counterparts).

However some (though not all) MIM basses can have very loose neck joints. I've been able to fit a medium pick between the neck and side of the joint of some MIM basses. That can't be good for resonance and tone.


Possibly a valid point, however an overly snug neck pocket fit can lead to finish cracks on the body around the pocket, especially on thick polyester finishes. I think that is why the neck pocket fit is looser on modern basses in general. Just my opinion. It is a fact that the CNC machines used to make the bodies and necks can go down near microscopic tolerances, so if they thought it was really crucial they could make them squeaky tight. With thicker finishes it is better to leave a larger gap for expansion in warmer weather. If all four bolts are tight it should make good enough contact that a slight pocket expansion gap will not really be a tonal detriment. So again, that brings us back to the realization that the tonal deficiency comes down to the number of pieces and glue joints in the body blank. Just my opinion.


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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:45 am
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Thanks for the knowledge Brotherdave, you know your stuff! The bit about how many pieces are used to make the body makes great sense. Ive never realized that before, but i can definitely feel the difference in solidness between my MIM pbass and Schecter bass(which is a two piece body with neck-thru construction). I love the Schecter, but i ultimately prefer the classic passive fender tones. Its a 2005 model pbass that Ive had since march. ive tried a gotoh 201 bridge on it and honestly i prefer the tone with the stock bridge. Ive only used lighter gauge strings on it because it allowed me to have lower action with the gotoh but now that im back to using the stock bridge im going to try ernie ball regular slinky's, my string of choice. That should help add a lot more bottom end.


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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:40 pm
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isnt it true that you sort of have to break in a bass? Ive heard that over time and through steady use the instrument can become more resonant because of the wood aging and the neck joint becomes more solid overall? An amp repairman told me that once but I'm not sure how true it is. If so, that would make a difference since it just sat in the store for 4 years virtually untouched. maybe in a year or so it will feel more solid or resonant than it does now, if that is the case.


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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:44 pm
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Conaanthebarbarian wrote:
isnt it true that you sort of have to break in a bass? Ive heard that over time and through steady use the instrument can become more resonant because of the wood aging and the neck joint becomes more solid overall? An amp repairman told me that once but I'm not sure how true it is. If so, that would make a difference since it just sat in the store for 4 years virtually untouched. maybe in a year or so it will feel more solid or resonant than it does now, if that is the case.


Most current standard basses are encapsulated in an air-tight plastic sarcophagus called a Polyurethane finish. Nothing gets in or out. The way it sounds today is the way it will sound 20 or 50 years from now. A little moisture might escape from the screw holes....maybe...but not enough to make a real difference. A few exceptions do exist like the thin-skin nitrocellulose finishes on a few model series like the Highway One and some but not all of the Custom Shop models.

Prior to 1964 what he said was true about becoming more resonant over time for all Fender basses and guitars. That is one reason they cost a fortune.

I'm guessing the guy who told you this is old like me because that information is outdated by about 45 years.

I don't think the neck joint will become more solid either. Four bolts tightened up are pretty solid in the first place. I don't think age has anything to do with the neck joint being solid or not. The bolts take care of that. If neck joints become more solid over time that is the first I've heard of it. Anyone else heard of that?


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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:30 am
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yeah he is an old guy haha. Thanks again brotherDave, for the knowledge!


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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:29 am
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Conaanthebarbarian wrote:
isnt it true that you sort of have to break in a bass? Ive heard that over time and through steady use the instrument can become more resonant because of the wood aging and the neck joint becomes more solid overall? An amp repairman told me that once but I'm not sure how true it is. If so, that would make a difference since it just sat in the store for 4 years virtually untouched. maybe in a year or so it will feel more solid or resonant than it does now, if that is the case.


I think you can have an improvement in tone in any instrument that is played often. The body may have a heavy finish that locks the body up but the necks on MIM fneders are not finished heavily and they do contribute to the sound of your bass and they will get better with time.

Some newer polyurethane finishes are not as heavy as those used in the past. The other big factor is the type of body wood used. If the bass is made of basswood, it will never resonate the same as an ash or alder body.

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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:15 pm
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A piece of Saran Wrap or Glad Wrap plastic wrap from the kitchen is super thin, maybe 0.01 mm, however I can't breathe through it if you wrap my mouth and nose tightly with a single layer of it. So I don't think it matters how thick or think the plastic is.

Buying a bass that sounds great and will sound just as great 10, 20 or more years later is good.

What is wrong is buying a bass that doesn't make you 100% happy while convincing yourself that it is going to "age" and get better and be more to your liking. Even on an all nitrocellulose instrument any change will be slight and so gradual you probably won't even notice it.

I'm sure I've said this before but POLY does have some advantages. It is way more durable than nitro and more color stable too.


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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:45 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
A piece of Saran Wrap or Glad Wrap plastic wrap from the kitchen is super thin, maybe 0.01 mm, however I can't breathe through it if you wrap my mouth and nose tightly with a single layer of it. So I don't think it matters how thick or think the plastic is.

Buying a bass that sounds great and will sound just as great 10, 20 or more years later is good.

What is wrong is buying a bass that doesn't make you 100% happy while convincing yourself that it is going to "age" and get better and be more to your liking. Even on an all nitrocellulose instrument any change will be slight and so gradual you probably won't even notice it.

I'm sure I've said this before but POLY does have some advantages. It is way more durable than nitro and more color stable too.


Yep. Play a few hot summer gigs with a nitrocellulose bass and you'll sweat the finish off! Not so with polyurethane.


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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:34 am
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brotherdave wrote:
A piece of Saran Wrap or Glad Wrap plastic wrap from the kitchen is super thin, maybe 0.01 mm, however I can't breathe through it if you wrap my mouth and nose tightly with a single layer of it. So I don't think it matters how thick or think the plastic is.


I don't think that you should compare human respiration with the idea that "wood breathes". The resonance of a bass is really related to the type of wood and how heavy the finish is, weight wise. A nitrocellulose finish will crack, wear and allow the wood to be more resonant for sure but new methods of finishing with polyurethane of various types are yielding great results. It's different than lacquer, but some luthiers swear by it.

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Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:19 am
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BCbassman wrote:
brotherdave wrote:
A piece of Saran Wrap or Glad Wrap plastic wrap from the kitchen is super thin, maybe 0.01 mm, however I can't breathe through it if you wrap my mouth and nose tightly with a single layer of it. So I don't think it matters how thick or think the plastic is.


I don't think that you should compare human respiration with the idea that "wood breathes". The resonance of a bass is really related to the type of wood and how heavy the finish is, weight wise. A nitrocellulose finish will crack, wear and allow the wood to be more resonant for sure but new methods of finishing with polyurethane of various types are yielding great results. It's different than lacquer, but some luthiers swear by it.


I was not comparing how a guitar "breathes" to human respiration. I am merely pointing out that air can not pass through a super thin piece of poly. If air can not pass through a .01 mm thin piece of poly, then how can denser moisture get through it?

Has someone invented a porous poly paint? Or have they invented a way to apply it that makes it the finish porous?

I must admit I am unfamiliar with the "new methods of finishing with polyurethane" which you are talking about, other than thin poly which still won't breathe because it is just a thinner layer of plastic which is still thicker than kitchen wrap. Please enlighten me as to what these new methods are and exactly what the unspecified "great results" are? Thank you kindly.

Also, is what you are saying is that nitrocellulose paint has to be cracked or worn away to allow moisture to escape? I've always heard it breathed right through the intact finish. Apparently I was misinformed. Gotta do some more checking on that.


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