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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:14 pm
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higginsj wrote:
Here are some pics.
ImageImage

Thanks everybody for all your help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.


SWEET looking bass! Definitely a keeper. I'm a sucker for vintaged white.


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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:53 am
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I wouldn't refinish that bass. The white finish is yellowed which they all do, but I don't see it as severely cracked.

I disagree with Brother Dave.

IMHO refinishing will lower your resale value by 50%, unless it done so professionally that no one can tell, but there is always the obligation for you to disclose that the bass was refinished when you sell and then you will take the hit in the sales price. You will also take the hit on the cost of the refin, which if professionally done, will cost you at least $400, probably more if done by Gord Miller or someone of his talent. And remember, a correct refinish of a Precision Special is not done in nitrcellulouse lacquer, it is done in polyurethane, which is not a favored finish by many refin shops. And forget about getting a headstock decal for a '82 Precision Special, if you refin the neck, you lose the serial number, the model name and probably end up with one of those incorrect Spagetti logos that show up from who knows where and do you still think your bass has only depreciated 25% with all of those changes? You have to be kidding!

An '82 Precision may never have the value of a '62, but it it is still an appreciating asset in original condition. They are not making any more Precision Specials and you can never undue a refinish.
You may plan on keeping a bass the rest of your life but your circumstances can change and you may need to sell a bass that you had planned on keeping. That's when the refinished Fenders hurt you.

You can do what you want, but I say don't refin that Fender Bass. If an original finish bothers you that much, sell the instrument and buy a prettier, newer bass that plays well and leave the original, 20th century Fenders intact for the future players to enjoy in their original condition.

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Post subject: REALLY?
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:04 am
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BCbassman wrote:
I wouldn't refinish that bass. The white finish is yellowed which they all do, but I don't see it as severely cracked.

I disagree with Brother Dave.

IMHO refinishing will lower your resale value by 50%, unless it done so professionally that no one can tell, but there is always the obligation for you to disclose that the bass was refinished when you sell and then you will take the hit in the sales price. You will also take the hit on the cost of the refin, which if professionally done, will cost you at least $400, probably more if done by Gord Miller or someone of his talent. And remember, a correct refinish of a Precision Special is not done in nitrcellulouse lacquer, it is done in polyurethane, which is not a favored finish by many refin shops. And forget about getting a headstock decal for a '82 Precision Special, if you refin the neck, you lose the serial number, the model name and probably end up with one of those incorrect Spagetti logos that show up from who knows where and do you still think your bass has only depreciated 25% with all of those changes? You have to be kidding!

An '82 Precision may never have the value of a '62, but it it is still an appreciating asset in original condition. They are not making any more Precision Specials and you can never undue a refinish.
You may plan on keeping a bass the rest of your life but your circumstances can change and you may need to sell a bass that you had planned on keeping. That's when the refinished Fenders hurt you.

You can do what you want, but I say don't refin that Fender Bass. If an original finish bothers you that much, sell the instrument and buy a prettier, newer bass that plays well and leave the original, 20th century Fenders intact for the future players to enjoy in their original condition.


BC BASSMAN!

I clearly said a refinish would negatively impact the resale value. I also pointed out the scarcity of this particular instrument. It is a truly rare bird.

You said, “If an original finish bothers you that much, sell the instrument and buy a prettier, newer bass…”

I said, “If all you care about is squeezing every dollar possible out of it, then don't refinish and put the bass with the ugly finish up for sale or under the bed until the economy improves and get another one to use that looks, sounds and plays good.”

We pretty much said exactly the same thing but in different ways. So exactly HOW the heck do you disagree with that?

If he refinishes with Gord Miller or anyone else I recommend on the page I referred him to where I list people that I know do good work and then he keeps the bass for the rest of his life, his loss is ZERO! Because he doesn’t lose a cent of value until he tries to sell it! The JOY he gets out of it for his lifetime is PRICELESS! You probably found out about Gord Miller from my site by the way! LOL!!!

So BC, take a chill pill. It is his bass and if he wants it refinished he can do that. He could pour Zippo fluid on it and do a Hendrix if he wants.

I did not suggest he get 2 cans of Krylon and go at it in the garage. I referred him to TOP REPUTABLE people including Gord Miller. I also NEVER suggested he refinish the neck either. (By the way, Leo Fender referred people to Lays for refinishing too just like I do!)

Where did I say anything about refinishing the neck or headstock? Show me that please?

I think a sharp looking refinish on an 82 model is about a 25% knockoff. On a 64 WELL YES then we are talking about a 50% knockoff and maybe even 60%.

To be BRUTALLY honest, an original ’82 finish that is all cracked up from heat/cold exposure is FAR MORE than a 25% knockoff because it shouldn’t be cracked up! So he will actually be AHEAD with a refinish on this thing if it is severely cracked up! From the crappy photos he posted I can barely tell it is a Fender much less the actual condition of the finish!

But again, until you SELL it you haven’t lost anything! So if you want to keep it forever, refinish the thing all you want! Put pink polka-dots on the front and a paisley pattern on the back with a few band-aids stuck on it here and there…take it to the local tattoo parlor and have "MOM" tattooed on it. AND you STILL haven’t lost a CENT until you sell it!

I disagree with you BC BASSSMAN! Which is the beauty of America. We can disagree and still be friends! HUGS BC, but you are nuts and you can not even spell spaghetti! But I think your heart is in the right place even if your brain is in neutral.


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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:42 am
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So I'm Nuts huh?
1. Dave you assumed that the bass was a walnut Precision Special and its not. What about his original post led you to that conclusion?

2. You do tell him that it will negatively affect the value of his bass to refinish but you go on to recommend that he change the color if he refinshes. Candy apple red rec. (See quote)
If you change the color on a matching headstock bass you are re-finishing the headstock and destroying the serial number and logo on this bass unless you want a red bass with a white headstock. I don't really believe that is what you are suggesting is it?

3. You are doing this bass owner and others a disservice in underestimating what a refin does to the value of a bass especially one that takes off the logo and serial number.

4. The notion that you don't lose until you sell is ridiculous. If you change a collectible irreversibly it affects the value as an asset that you own.
Even if the value is only reduced by your estimated 25% this year it will increase over time and someday it will only be worth 25% of an original finish and yes eventually the owner or his heirs will sell that bass and take the hit.

5. I understand that this owner and any other can do whatever they want to with their bass. I recommend against refinishing any original Fender due to the nature of these instruments and the fact that every one that is refinished leaves one less original Fender to be enjoyed by future generations.
This is my informed opinon of 40 years and I thought the reason for participating in this forum was to share it with less knowlegable players. I did not come here to be insulted or to insult you or anyone else. I never considered these posts to be a spelling test either so please refrain from the petty remarks Dave, you are sounding threatened in your psuedo position of authority on this board.

BC

brotherdave wrote:
Refinish if it really would make you happier and you have no plans to sell. If you are playing it out of course you want a good looking bass. Keep in mind that refinishing negatively effects collector value. However this has less impact on a 1982 bass than on a 1962 bass.

If you do decide on the refinish route, then you can click the link in my signature below and you can find many top refinishing shops on the MAJOR REPAIR & REFINISHING page. Maybe one will be close to you. If it was me, I'd go with nitrocellulose lacquer in the original color or one of the colors previously mentioned as originally specified.

You can usually save $100 to $150 by stripping it yourself. Stripping is fairly labor intensive so many shops charge extra for stripping.

I think the all gold hardware with the Candy Apple Red looks amazing on these as below:
Image

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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:42 am
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Oh lord, are we really gonna get forum drama here? You both know a lot about the instruments and are valuble members of the forum. You both said your piece, you both have your differing philosophies on refinishing instruments, so how about you have a real conversation about it instead of insulting eachother (which you both did).

To brother dave: to be fair, since it has a painted headstock you WOULD have to refinish the heastock if you're re-painting the body, which would undervalue it more than you suggested.

To BC Bassman: with all do respect, this not a 60's or even 70's bass. Yes, in future generations it will be worth a lot more, but that could be said about my MIA I bout a year ago. Does that mean I shouldn't alter it because it will probably be very valuable in 40 years? I agree that you should't refinish vintage bass, but up to a certain point. It's a 1982, don't make him feel guilty for altering the instrument.


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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:23 am
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I never insulted anybody. Please show me where I did. I was the one insulted.

My only disagreement here involved the amount of devaluation caused by refinishing this particular instrument, a 1982 Precision Special. Remember this bass is already 27 years old. Its not a new Fender bass.
I understand it is everyone's right to do what they want with their property
and I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty but just to realize what they have and what you lose by a refinish but don't think that the value of something you own only comes into play when you sell it.
You can have a bass stolen and then how is it the value going to be calculated? Even though you intended to keep the instrument you have to give a value to an insurance company.

I feel it is important to tell people that there are very few things that you will ever own that have the appreciation potential of an original Fender bass. That is all.
A Fender bass from the eighties may never reach the stratospheric values of the 50's and 60's Fenders but they are still coming into their own.

If you want to destroy that potential, that is your choice, but when there are so many aftermarket bodies and necks available to make any bass you want in any finish you want with zero impact on your original Fender, its a shame to see these instruments altered and yes Anabis16 that technically appllies to your 2008 Fender bass, too.

Hey folks- its just my opinon. That's what I am here to give.


anubis16 wrote:
Oh lord, are we really gonna get forum drama here? You both know a lot about the instruments and are valuble members of the forum. You both said your piece, you both have your differing philosophies on refinishing instruments, so how about you have a real conversation about it instead of insulting eachother (which you both did).

To brother dave: to be fair, since it has a painted headstock you WOULD have to refinish the heastock if you're re-painting the body, which would undervalue it more than you suggested.

To BC Bassman: with all do respect, this not a 60's or even 70's bass. Yes, in future generations it will be worth a lot more, but that could be said about my MIA I bout a year ago. Does that mean I shouldn't alter it because it will probably be very valuable in 40 years? I agree that you should't refinish vintage bass, but up to a certain point. It's a 1982, don't make him feel guilty for altering the instrument.

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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:25 am
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And that's a perfectly good position to have, and a valuble thing to inform someone. I just think it's a little too far to say Brother Dave was wrong for suggesting the bass get refinished.

However, I think you were insulting to Brother Dave. Yes, he insulted you, but you went on to say that he was doing a disservice to people by his comments, and frankly that's a bit too far. You're giving your perspective, he's giving his.

"I never considered these posts to be a spelling test either so please refrain from the petty remarks Dave, you are sounding threatened in your psuedo position of authority on this board."

That sounds pretty insulting to me. He's a valuable member of the forum, just as you are, and ironically you sounded pretty defensive yourself when you wrote that.


My point here isn't who started what or who's right or wrong. You both responded strongly to eachother's opinions, and I think it escolated beyond that. You both have a lot of valuable things to say, and are more experienced than almost everyone else here. I'd like to hear your perspectives without all the drama. Thank you.


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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:50 am
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Hey guys I didn't mean to start a war here.
I'm not going to refinish it !!!!!!!
I know the pictures i posted weren't that great. It's 100 % original.
The cracks aren't that bad.
I use it mainly in my studio.

Thanks


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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:18 pm
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Hey Anubis16- I appreciate that you want to end the drama but I don't think you are being fair to me. Please reread my posts. There is no drama in any of them before I have to defend myself. You will allow me to defend myself won't you? I was told to take a chill pill and that I was nuts!

Should I ignore that?

I am expressing an opinon of value removed by a refinish.
I disagree with Dave's assesment of the value removed by a refin.
I disagree with the notion that you don't lose value until you sell.
IMHO it is a dis-service to novice owners to recommend refinishing a bass that is on the cusp of appreciating dramatically- I know this is my opinion but I think if you look at any Fender approaching 30 years old the facts bolster my position.

I waited until the owner posted some pictures of his bass before I rendered my opinion of what he should do. Admittedly they are not great pictures, but the headstock showed a yellowed white finish that is in very good condition for a 27 year old bass.

Dave posted a picture of the water based finishes used by Fender in the eighties on the LeadI and Lead II guitars that had horrendous problems but these finishes were never used on Precision Specials in 1982.

That was mis-leading IMO.

We disagree.

I will say that Brother Dave has a great website with lots of valuable info.

I never meant to insult him or anyone else.

Drama over.

anubis16 wrote:
And that's a perfectly good position to have, and a valuble thing to inform someone. I just think it's a little too far to say Brother Dave was wrong for suggesting the bass get refinished.

However, I think you were insulting to Brother Dave. Yes, he insulted you, but you went on to say that he was doing a disservice to people by his comments, and frankly that's a bit too far. You're giving your perspective, he's giving his.

"I never considered these posts to be a spelling test either so please refrain from the petty remarks Dave, you are sounding threatened in your psuedo position of authority on this board."

That sounds pretty insulting to me. He's a valuable member of the forum, just as you are, and ironically you sounded pretty defensive yourself when you wrote that.


My point here isn't who started what or who's right or wrong. You both responded strongly to eachother's opinions, and I think it escolated beyond that. You both have a lot of valuable things to say, and are more experienced than almost everyone else here. I'd like to hear your perspectives without all the drama. Thank you.

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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:29 pm
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higginsj wrote:
Hey guys I didn't mean to start a war here.
I'm not going to refinish it !!!!!!!
I know the pictures i posted weren't that great. It's 100 % original.
The cracks aren't that bad.
I use it mainly in my studio.

Thanks


Hey, I hope you have lots of fun laying down great basslines with your bass.

take care.

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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:59 pm
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BC BASSMAN! Sorry BC! I should have never said you personally are nuts. What I meant to say and certainly should have phrased better was that, from this player's point of view, your opinion was a tad overly fanatical about not refinishing a 1982 bass.

Just making friends wherever I go. That's me. Again I am sorry.

I too try to help and share information with others and I will continue to do so. Anyone who contacts me has always gotten the best information I could provide and if I can not answer their question, I try to find the answer or direct them elsewhere where they might can get help. That will continue to be the case.

I thought it might be a walnut, I was wrong about that too. Of course I had no photo or color description at that point and thought it could be one of the rare walnut basses. I am sorry about that too.

Am I perfect? No. Do I make mistakes? Yes. Plenty of mistakes. But I'm willing to admit them. So again, BC BASSMAN my sincere apology to you.

Live long and thump on BCBASSMAN! And everyone else too.


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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:44 pm
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Apology accepted, Dave.
We agree to disagree about refinishing basses. I don't mean the following to be at all disrespectful to you or anyone who shares your opinon.

I just want to say that I think you should qualify your opinion, as possibly being the wrong choice, for the following reasons.
The average age of those posting to this board is fairly young. I don't know the facts but I gather from the questions asked that there are a lot of teens and younger beginning bassists posting here.

What do you say to a 14 year old who reads your post and decides to take paint stripper to his Fender bass because he reads here that it is no big deal to refinish a bass that newer than 1980? He proceeds to strip the bass and uses spray cans to do a horrendous job of refinishing his bass, or his father's bass or the bass he just inherited from an uncle, because he can and he is going to keep it for the rest of his life. Or so he thinks, after all, the kid is 14 and he has a lot of living to do.
Five or ten years pass and he needs to sell that bass for money for college, or his girlfriend is pregnant or he wants to buy a car and he takes that bass to the local guitar shop and he finds out that its worth far less that he could've gotten for it had he left it alone.
How would you feel if you were that kid? He trusted what he read here!
That's why I had to speak up. Maybe one of those 14 year olds reading this will think twice before screwing up a fine instrument. Thats all.

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Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:01 pm
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BCbassman wrote:
Apology accepted, Dave.
We agree to disagree about refinishing basses. I don't mean the following to be at all disrespectful to you or anyone who shares your opinon.

I just want to say that I think you should qualify your opinion, as possibly being the wrong choice, for the following reasons.
The average age of those posting to this board is fairly young. I don't know the facts but I gather from the questions asked that there are a lot of teens and younger beginning bassists posting here.

What do you say to a 14 year old who reads your post and decides to take paint stripper to his Fender bass because he reads here that it is no big deal to refinish a bass that newer than 1980? He proceeds to strip the bass and uses spray cans to do a horrendous job of refinishing his bass, or his father's bass or the bass he just inherited from an uncle, because he can and he is going to keep it for the rest of his life. Or so he thinks, after all, the kid is 14 and he has a lot of living to do.
Five or ten years pass and he needs to sell that bass for money for college, or his girlfriend is pregnant or he wants to buy a car and he takes that bass to the local guitar shop and he finds out that its worth far less that he could've gotten for it had he left it alone.
How would you feel if you were that kid? He trusted what he read here!
That's why I had to speak up. Maybe one of those 14 year olds reading this will think twice before screwing up a fine instrument. Thats all.


After thinking this thread over for nearly a month I really need to make two comments unemotionally.

It was stated earlier in this thread that the photo of the badly checked P-Bass I posted was a LEAD series guitar and it was said that my posting that photo was “misleading.” I now offer clarification since this statement was not merely a difference of opinion over the issue at hand, but rather an affront to my integrity. I certify that the photo I posted earlier actually is a 1988 Fender Precision Bass (serial E834XXX) belonging to Mr. A. J. Whitcombe who sent me many photos for a consultation during the restoration of this instrument. I chose to post only one of the photos. In the following photos notice that the shadows from the same steel window security screen in his shop are present in each. He used a white background on the original finish photo so it would contrast better with the black finish but the shadows from the security screen are precisely the same in both photos. This is the same window and the same instrument at different points in the restoration project. I did not initially feel it necessary to post the stripped photo on this thread. Now it is necessary to prove that the photo I posted was in fact a Fender P-bass and that I did not mislead anyone since I called it a bass.

Image

Image

To the 14 year old who went at it in the garage with spray cans I would need to say nothing at all since I never said that was an OK thing to do. Implying I said that it was OK is again a misstatement of what I posted. Leo Fender himself is said to have referred refinish inquiries to Lay’s. I too recommend Lay’s along with many other very competent professional services. I have never recommended do-it-yourself refinishing here or elsewhere. Stripping a refinish project instrument yourself to save money is ok if you don’t mind doing an awful lot of very messy work. However, the refinish application itself rarely has the expected outcome for a do-it-yourselfer.

In summary, I stand by everything I’ve posted in this thread except for calling BC BASSMAN nuts for which I long ago apologized. My apology was said to have been accepted but then I was immediately needled again. After considering this calmly and rationally for the past month, I will not “qualify” my “opinion as being the wrong choice.” I’m not a refinish proponent by any means but recognize that in some cases professional refinishing is the best option to save an instrument that otherwise is not presentable and little more than a good candidate for parting-out on eBay. To refinish or not is a personal decision to be made by the instrument owner who has to live with it and certainly not a decision to be made by remote control on an enthusiast forum.


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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:44 am
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Hey Dave, I don't see where I needled you, but lets explain something.

The finish that was on that 1988 Precision bass in the picture was never used on a 1982 Fender Precision Special.
Can we agree on that?

So, therefore, it is misleading to use a picture of a bass finish that is not applicable to the instrument in question.
Can we agree on that point, too?

I didn't know where you got the picture or what instrument it was in the original post so I referred to the only instruments that I have seen with that particular problem and that happens to be Fender Lead I and Lead II guitars.
That was a water based finish that was used by Fender and Musicman in the late 80's with obvious disasterous results.
I never said that he pictured instrument was a Fender Lead I or II guitar, as if that matter. I just pointed out that that finish formula was not used on the 1982 Precision Specials but was used on the Lead series guitars.

I agree that the cracked finish is real ugly, but I didn't make the rules about original finishes and the fact that they are more valued than refinishes in every instance. If you want a pretty Fender, you are always financially better off buying a new one to play and leaving your old one alone.

I am of the opinion that you should qualify your estimates of devaluations of basses and guitars after they are refinished.

That is an impossible task to do for a global audience. Values of Fender instruments vary widely around the world and most of what we can pick up for X dollars is 4Xdollars in another country.

I don't see anywhere in my discussion where I needled you.
I just disagreed with your opinon and expressed how and where I disagreed with you.

I thought that is what discussion forums are for.

I too, stand by my posts and I understand that some folks will refinish their instruments. I just want them to be informed before they make an irreversible decision.

I do like Dave's website and I hope that we can be friends in spite of this thread.

Sincerly,
bassman Bill

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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:06 pm
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*sigh* I've reread the posts between you two. I promised myself I wouldn't say anything, but this has gotten way too frustrating. I haven't seen much of either of you two for the past month, and I think the forum has been lacking because of it. You both know more than almost everyone else here. This isn't talkbass, we don't have that many experts. And frankly this whole thing that's happened is the kind of stuff I'd expect to see on talkbass, not here.

I say this all as an outside observer. I don't have any alligence to either one of you, and I think you're both equally at fault. That's my honest opinion.

I think both of you are missing the point. Frankly at this point it doesn't matter who's right or wrong. You both had your points, and frankly both were valid. It also doesn't really matter if someone got a fact or two wrong, because as BrotherDave pointed out, you're both human, and mistakes happen.

I think the issue here isn't that you disagreed. That happens all the time. The issue is the WAY you disagreed.

What SHOULD have happened is BrotherDave said his piece about it, and BC said he respectfully dissagreed and stated his reasons why. This happens all the time on this forum, and there's no reason it shouldn't have happened this time.

What DID happen instead was that BrotherDave called BC nuts, and BC said BrotherDave did a disservice by saying what he did about refinishing. Both posts were insulting, and both were unnecessary. THATS the core problem here: not what was said, but how it was said.

Now I had someone say something similar to me just the other day. I stated my opinion on fender's stock preamps, and a person who disagreed with me told me that my response was "meaningless substitutes for actual thought on the subject" simply because he disagreed. Was I insulted? Hell yes. Did I say anything in return? Yes: I told him why I thought I was correct. Did I say anything about his nasty comment? No, because it was unnecessary. People say strong things sometimes without realizing it. I think that's what happened between you two: you both said stronger statements than you intended.


We all understand your positions on refinishing a 1982 bass. You're both well informed on the subject, and I really doubt either of you will convince the other of your opinion. And frankly, at this point it doesn't matter. It's not your job to make everyone agree with you, it's your job to inform people of your experienced opinion on the matter.

Brother Dave has appoligized for what he has said, and I think it's sincere. I think it's your job to do the same BC.

Maybe I'm out of line getting in the middle of this, but frankly I'm way too sick of this to care at this point.


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