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Post subject: question about tuning keys
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:17 am
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I think this is the first time I've posted in the bass forums here so first let me say a big "How Do!" to everyone here.

Alrighty, I have an old Kay Precision clone...I don't know the exact date, but I know it's late 60's/early 70's. She's actually a really wonderful instrument despite being a "knock off"...alder body, -6- bolt neck, genuine '73 Fender Precision pickups and she's also got a Schaller bridge as well. Anyways, I'm getting ready to upgrade the tuning keys...the originals are getting more than a bit "stubborn" and obviously weren't of very high quality to begin with. I'm planning on going with Schaller's or possibly the Schaller/Fenders (now please...I'm not building a "fake" here...I have no intentions of EVER selling this instrument. I only want some decent quality parts here!).

Now as I'm perusing Ebay, I keep seeing Fender/Schaller "Deluxe Lite" tuning keys and my question is, what exactly is it that makes these things "Lite"? Is it that they are they smaller than standard sized tuning keys? According to the one auction they have "Large Vintage Flat Chrome Cloverleaf Paddle" and are "Used on the American Deluxe Basses 4-String Basses from 2004 to Present" which would seem to indicate that these are full size tuners...so what is it that makes these things "Lite"?

Just for reference, here's a link to the one specific auction I found...I'm not actually considering this specific set but I'm trying to figure out what the deal is here...

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Fender-Schaller ... 1|294%3A50


My big concern is that I recently bought a decent set of "sealed" bass tuners at a guitar show...same size and style that's typically used on Yamaha basses. I didn't have one of my old tuners with me at the show so when I got home I found that the tuners I had just bought were -WAY- too small. Fortunately I only payed $10 for them and I'm sure I can find something else to use them on but I don't want to fork out $60 to $100 for another set only to find that they are again too small.

The tuners that are currently on the bass now are very large vintage style tuners...typical of what you would see on an old P-bass/clone. I -know- with the newer tuners that I will have to drill out a couple of holes for the pins...not a big deal there but... Any idea if these deluxe lite's will fit?

Alrighty, I thank everyone for their comments and opinions!
Peace,
Jim


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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:00 am
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It all has to do with the diameter of the existing hole on the headstock. That is the main concern. Usually 7/16th or 11/16th of an inch. I would not modify the hole at all. Screw holes may not match up just because the hole diameter matches. Photos always help. So would precise measurements of the screw holes. Measure them top left to top right and bottom left to bottom right from the center of the screw holes.

What makes LITE tuners LITE is the weight. The Schaller LITE tuners were used on lots of Fender P-basses in gold and chrome finishes.


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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:59 am
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brotherdave wrote:
It all has to do with the diameter of the existing hole on the headstock. That is the main concern. Usually 7/16th or 11/16th of an inch. I would not modify the hole at all. Screw holes may not match up just because the hole diameter matches. Photos always help. So would precise measurements of the screw holes. Measure them top left to top right and bottom left to bottom right from the center of the screw holes.

What makes LITE tuners LITE is the weight. The Schaller LITE tuners were used on lots of Fender P-basses in gold and chrome finishes.


Thanks for the info. I will get the post measurements later today just to make sure. If the new tuners use a retaining nut and I need to drill out the holes a bit more, that's no big deal...as long as they're not smaller. The screw holes don't bother me either...the tuners I'm looking at appear to have the "pegs" that hold the tuners in place along with the large retaining nut so they don't even appear to use screws. Even if they do, it's not a big deal...I can re-drill there if need be. I'm not trying to find "exact replacements" as much as something a bit more conventional. Again I just wanted to make sure that these "lite" tuners weren't simply physically smaller as were the tuners that I picked up at the show (again very similar to my Yamaha tuners).

Thanks,
Jim


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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:29 am
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You may think it is easy to drill them out, but it isn't easy to get them all four centered. You only have once crack at that.

One way to make sure you get them centered is to get a dowel the same size as the existing hole, pack a length of dowel down into the hole and they should fit very tightly. Mark the center of each dowel and then drill new holes starting directly into the center mark of each dowel. Finish with a good buffing to the hole for smooth insertion of the bushing.

Since drilling all four holes centered isn't really as easy as it sounds I have always used exact diameter replacements and also try to match the screw holes up too. Extra screw holes don't really hurt anything so long as the tuner frames cover any extraneous holes.


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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:25 am
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brotherdave wrote:
You may think it is easy to drill them out, but it isn't easy to get them all four centered. You only have once crack at that.

One way to make sure you get them centered is to get a dowel the same size as the existing hole, pack a length of dowel down into the hole and they should fit very tightly. Mark the center of each dowel and then drill new holes starting directly into the center mark of each dowel. Finish with a good buffing to the hole for smooth insertion of the bushing.

Since drilling all four holes centered isn't really as easy as it sounds I have always used exact diameter replacements and also try to match the screw holes up too. Extra screw holes don't really hurt anything so long as the tuner frames cover any extraneous holes.


No offense here dude, but I've been doing my own mods for well over 20 years now. I've "opened up" tuning peg holes on a number of cheap guitars over the years to allow for decent tuning keys...it's not THAT big a deal for me at all. The day I sat down at a Bridgeport mill and cut out a pickup cavity on my old NJ Kramer for a second pickup...that was FAR more traumatic for me then drilling a headstock! LOL!!! At this point in time I've actually even cut a few of my own bodies...I really have no problem at all with this type of mod.

Again I don't mean any offense at all here, but opening up a tuning peg hole isn't rocket science...at least it isn't for me. I've done it MANY times over the years and I'm very comfortable with this type of mod.

L8r,
Jim


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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:49 pm
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lomitus wrote:

No offense here dude, but I've been doing my own mods for well over 20 years now. I've "opened up" tuning peg holes on a number of cheap guitars over the years to allow for decent tuning keys...it's not THAT big a deal for me at all. The day I sat down at a Bridgeport mill and cut out a pickup cavity on my old NJ Kramer for a second pickup...that was FAR more traumatic for me then drilling a headstock! LOL!!! At this point in time I've actually even cut a few of my own bodies...I really have no problem at all with this type of mod.

Again I don't mean any offense at all here, but opening up a tuning peg hole isn't rocket science...at least it isn't for me. I've done it MANY times over the years and I'm very comfortable with this type of mod.

L8r,
Jim


That is pretty impressive that you are making your own bodies and routing pickup cavities! I'd love to see one of your bodies. Post a photo please! I'm sure everyone would love to see one or two of your creations!


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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:04 am
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brotherdave wrote:

That is pretty impressive that you are making your own bodies and routing pickup cavities! I'd love to see one of your bodies. Post a photo please! I'm sure everyone would love to see one or two of your creations!



Well, I don't have a lot of current pics...most of these are older and some of the projects are at various stages but you'll get the idea. Once I get back on my feet (nursing a badly sliced foot at the moment) and once I have some time, I'll get some new photos.


Image


This first one here is the first body I ever cut myself. It's, more or less, a southern swamp ash double fat tele. This guitar was a HUGE learning experience for me...I made a lot of mistakes and I've redone her a couple of times over the years. This shot was taken last year for a bud of mine...I had her apart as I'm putting a new bridge on, so the new bridge and strings aren't on her here. The neck on this one is actually off an old Hondo II LP clone. I sat down and reshaped the headstock so that it wouldn't quite look like anything else 8). I really gotta get a black tip for that switch one of these days! LOL!


Image

This next one is a more traditional tele...at least she will be when she's done. This project is actually on hold at the moment because I messed up on the scale length. The actual guitar I modeled this body after was an old Rhythmline tele clone....great neck, horrible body. The problem was that it wasn't quite a full size body. Bigger than 3/4's but not full size. I thought I had taken that into account when I had cut the body but because I'm using full size parts, apparently I screwed up somewhere so I can't use the Rhythmline neck as I had intended...I'm going to have to get a full size neck. As I have a number of other projects going at the moment, this one has been pushed back to the back burner again. Once I get a new neck for her, I'll get her slapped together and see how she sounds...the body on this one is actually red oak, so I'm real curious what she's going to sound like before I do the finish.


Image

Ok...I can't really take a lot of credit for this one...this is a bass that my wife and I are building for her. In fact, my wife cut this body herself. I was going to cut the neck (you can see the 5 piece maple neck blank that I glued up) but I chickened out and just bought her one...I'm just not confident enough in my skills yet to start cutting my own necks.

This is going to be a short scale (30") when it's done...my wife has an injured index finger on her left hand from an old machining accident so she has a rather unique 3 finger technique but as such, also needs the shorter scale necks to play. This one is going to be done in a blue burst finish, she's going to have Duncan and EMG pickups and I think it's going to be really sweet once it's done.


Image

And speaking of the wife's projects... This is my wife's 3/4 scale bass. Sorry it's such a poor quality pic but it's about all I have of this instrument at the moment. This was another "restoration" of sorts. She had bought it for a friend of hers back in their teens for her very first band. When the band broke up, the bass player split and left the bass with my wife. When my wife had bought it, it was done in this HORRIBLE blue...looked like some kind of house paint...latex maybe that had been brushed on. It's definitely NOT a high quality instrument to be sure...I'm not even sure what brand it may have been but it's my wife's bass so we sat down and got all the blue off and were able to bring back most of the original finish...hey...if my wife is happy, I'm happy. Oddly enough, it's actually not that bad an instrument...not really a lot of tone there per say but it's actually quite playable.



Image

This one is actually a partscaster that I just finished up a few weeks back. Didn't actually cut this one myself, but I refinished the body here...twas a horribly done black when I got it. This thing has turned out to be a GREAT player...alder body, '04 Indo Squire Standard neck, Mexi bridge, Japanese Fender pickups....I'm VERY happy and proud of this one. She's really got that vintage Strat "vibe" without looking beat like a Roadworn or a relic.


Image

And this is the project I'm currently working on. This is a Yamaha Motion bass...apparently an MB-II which I picked up at a guitar show for $30. I re-doing her in black lacquer. I was hoping to start shooting the clear coats this weekend but...I'm having some problems doing the new Yamaha decal on the body. I'm starting to kick myself in the butt for doing her in black....I thought the black would look good with a yellow Motion B logo/decal but I can't get the decal to print opaque enough on my inkjet to actually be seen over the black paint. I'm still experimenting though...hopefully I will figure something out here. I could just go ahead and do the clear coat and forget about the decal but I really like the aesthetic of the decal on the body and since this is basically a restoration, I'd like to go with as much as a stock look as possible.


Image


This is the bass I'm trying to find new tuners for. She's a "grand old Dame" to say the least. Again I don't know the specific year beyond being a late 60's/early 70's...all I really know is that she's an old Kay. I got her for $100 from a friend of mine some 20 odd years ago. My buddy had already put the Fender pickups in her and I added the Schaller bridge some years later (back around '94 I believe). This was also my first re-fret as well...did that back around the same time as the bridge.

Check out this neck plate...

Image

Ya don't see a lot of 6 bolts around :D. I gotta be honest here, this thing really has more balls than most "real" Fenders I've ever played. She's a beast to be sure and she'll give you a serious back ache after 3 hours on stage, but she's well worth it! It's just that the tuners on this thing are getting so tight (sorry no pictures of the tuners yet)...I've tried taking them apart and cleaning them but they were really el' cheapo tuners to begin with and there's not much more I can do with them. That why I want the good Fender/Schaller tuners...something I can put on there that I won't have to fuss with for another 20 years or so.


Image


Last but not least, this is a shot of most of the "family". There's actually 4 or 5 guitars missing in this shot...I hadn't gotten the 2008 Squire Standard or the Bullet yet, had not build "Brownie" (pictured above) yet, the "Disastercaster" is missing here also and there's an acoustic or two missing from this shot. Oh...there's a second Kay bass missing here too...I picked it up at a flee market last year for $25 because it had been thru a basement flood. Another project on the back burner if you will. Anyways, like I said...I've been doing this stuff for a while now :D.

Anyways, sorry these aren't my usual artistic flare when it comes to photography...more "documentary" than anything so please enjoy them for what they are.

Peace,
Jim


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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:46 am
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Nice work. I've never seen one of those Yamaha basses either. Good luck with it.


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