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Post subject: Whatr is the neck radius of a 1981 P-Bass?
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:34 am
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Does anyone know the fingerboard/neck radius of 1981 maple neck/fingerboard P-Bass. Thanks.


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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:40 am
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Welcome to the forum(s)...paging Jlarocho or brotherdave...these guys know a lot of info on the Fender basses. Hopefully they can answer your question. In the meantime, ck the forums out. :wink:

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Post subject: New Coke Vs. Old Coke
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:54 pm
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Remember the NEW COKE VS. OLD COKE debacle back in 1985? This mess was very similar in the early 70's.

I'm pretty sure the radius would be 9.5" or really close to that by '81. For a brief period in the early 70's Fender made narrower and flatter P-bass necks with a higher radius at about 12.5". Yes, that 12.5" radius is exactly the same as a Jazz, but that radius didn't last long before going to a 9.5" radius which is pretty much the standard up till now.

In contrast the first generation basses had a much curvier 7.25 to 7.5". This neck radius continued on into the second generation Precisions up through the automation by CBS.

As to precisely why this radius change happened in the 70's and exactly who decided what the changes would be I do not know. However my general theory follows. It makes perfect sense to me but I don't have any documentation to back it up other than having lived through it while I worked at a Fender dealer in '70 through '74.

It is a well known fact that CBS was notoriously cost-per-unit conscious. They were very pro-automation and not above making huge investments to reduce the amount of costly skilled human labor spent on creating the finished product so long as it could be shown (on paper anyway) that the huge investments on automation they were going to make would eventually pay off.

Hence, the temporary change in the radius on the P-bass in the 70's had everything to do with CBS's newly installed automated production technique at Fullerton. (These early machines were sort of the great-granddaddies of today's much more versatile CNC machines at Corona which now make it possible to precisely recreate any Fender bass ever made down to the smallest detail.) As expensive as CNC machines are now, these early machines were even more expensive while also far less versatile because they could only do one radius per machine. CBS was initially only planning to buy one bass neck machine. Since the first bass neck machine would be able to fabricate one and only one bass neck radius, CBS had to make a choice and they chose to order the machine to make the Jazz radius of 12.5".

After enough feedback from P-players about the radius change, it is quite likely they had no choice but to buy another machine to bring back something closer to the original 7.5" radius or else discontinue the Precision model. Another big investment like that would only come after they were positive that the 12.5" neck machine worked reliably, that they really had no choice but to buy it and of course the biggest consideration was that corporate would eventually recoup the investment.

Eliminating the Precision (INSERT HUGE GULP HERE) from the product line during the CBS era changeover to automation may even have been seriously considered by the suits. Some models obviously didn't survive the changeover, like the Telecaster Bass, simply because they'd need to buy even more very expensive automation to continue making them.

Since the necks being used on both P's and J's were at 12.5" already, going back to 7.5" would be another huge change. The decision was made to compromise at 9.5" when ordering the new machine that would be dedicated solely to fabricating Precision necks.

Well, that is my theory.

As is well documented, the staggering cost of this automation changeover was a major component in the undoing of the CBS division at Fender's Fullerton operation. CBS board execs became impatient waiting on a return on huge investments in automation. Less well documented is precisely why CBS made the decisions it made.


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:43 am
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^ I don't know about all of that, or when the change officially took place, but I can tell you that my first bass, a 77 Precision, and the 78 Precision I currently own are both 7.25" radii necks.

FWIW, The modern J bass doesn't have a 12.5" radius, it's got a 9.5 same as a modern Precision, and the 75' AVS J Bass has a period correct 7.25" radius.

I have heard that Fender had expirimented with fretboard radius on the J before the official switch to the dreaded 9.5" spec. However, I've never heard of it being carried over to the P in production.

The Precision is usually the last instrument to get modifications implimented. This attitude is left over from Leo's own mindset of the Precision reaching refinement in the '62 model, and him pouring all his bass efforts into the J bass. or as it was originally referred to as, The Deluxe. Denoting it's place "above" the Precision as the companies high end model.

To get an idea of thow this transfers to CBS, note that both the J bass, and the Second Generation Telecaster Bass recieved the 3 bolt neck plate. The J bass also recieved the Bullet Trussrod. The Precision never saw any of these alterations, and remained true to it's form with the exception of the tugbar being moved to the thumbrest position and the change in the bridge. Hoqwever, as the P and J use the same bridge and thumbrest, that modification obviously took place on both. The bridge design is one thing that still continues to evolve to this day.

I'm not doubting the above posters experience, but I'm not sure the experimentation was as wide spread or as sweeping as he made it sound.

Perhaps one of the staff could chime in with some official stats?

The evolution of the basses is always interesting to explore.


D

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:05 am
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One more thing. 1981 may very well be the after the switch. Remember, in 83 the Vintage Series instruments debuted. Perhaps, partly in response to a demand for vintage spec'd Fenders.



D

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:02 pm
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TheKingofPain wrote:
^ I don't know about all of that, or when the change officially took place, but I can tell you that my first bass, a 77 Precision, and the 78 Precision I currently own are both 7.25" radii necks.

FWIW, The modern J bass doesn't have a 12.5" radius, it's got a 9.5 same as a modern Precision, and the 75' AVS J Bass has a period correct 7.25" radius.............................

I'm not doubting the above posters experience, but I'm not sure the experimentation was as wide spread or as sweeping as he made it sound.

Perhaps one of the staff could chime in with some official stats?

The evolution of the basses is always interesting to explore.


D
Hi KOP! I do know that for a while at least, the neck radius on all basses changed to about the same thing. It is hard to remember exactly what happened and when nearly 40 years ago, but I gave it my best shot. I do know there were width and radius changes made in the early 70's. Longtime P-bass players were complaining about it. Back there there was one and only one P-bass model. The Squier P-bass wasn't even out yet. So they were all the same. You could still order custom colors though. I heard a lot of discontent myself at the Fender dealer where I worked in Georgia at that time. This would have been during the period 1971 through 73 I believe. They could have gone back to the original radius before going to the 9.5. I really don't recall.

The three bolt necks didn't last very long either.

Back to the radius issue, as I originally recalled it "didn't last long before going to a 9.5" radius which is pretty much the standard up till now." So we agree on that. We also agree that the '81's radius is probably 9.5.

I don't have an '81 to check it. Also the radius could have been changed mid model year. So without knowing exactly what serial was the cutoff point you really would have to look at it. Probably no such record exists.

I also agree that there should be more about this history and radius changes on all the basses on the site. It would be a very useful resource for collectors and players.

Regards,
Dave


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:26 pm
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I never understood the reasons behind the switch myself. I usually blame the guitarists. However, as you have posited, it being a purely business concern, seems to make more sense. Especially with the way CBS seemed to approach their handling of the company from all accounts I've heard.

I'm just glad that FMIC still puts out basses as close to the way they used to be made as possible for all levels of customers. I know my 51RI Precision is the best bass I've ever played.

Back to the 81 radius issue. I suppose one method of finding out could be to contact a few online vintage dealers and inquire about the basses specs. Then again, if it's a mid-year transition, that may not be all that great of an idea either.

Welcome to the board Dave.


D

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:32 am
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TheKingofPain wrote:
One more thing. 1981 may very well be the after the switch. Remember, in 83 the Vintage Series instruments debuted. Perhaps, partly in response to a demand for vintage spec'd Fenders.



D


FYI: The vintage series, as least the Strats (57 & 62) debuted in '82, although there was some speculation that these early 82 'American' guitars were actually made in Japan since the project was running so far behind at the Fullerton plant. I've never been able to substantiate that claim, but the rumors still persist. I dunno about the basses. Anyone? People are still asking 3-6K for the early (red bobbin) examples , so I guess they better not be imports. It's funny, because VGPG puts them at 1200-1500 in VGC. I kind of thought that , last year, Fender would do a 25th anniversary reissue of the '82 reissue since they didn't have any 'special anniversary' models that year. :wink:


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