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Post subject: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:50 pm
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Hey gang! First post, been playing on and off since 1977 and grew up a Les Paul nut (loved Ace Frehley). When I was younger I thought Fenders were kinda strange and "cheap" looking because of the bolt on maple necks and lack of binding. Well, all that changed when I played my first Strat. I was very impressed with the variety of sounds I could get out of a Fender. This began the long road where I went from a "Gibson guy" to a "Fender guy".

So last week, I go to a local shop here in Birmingham and see this really cool '65 Mustang. It's a one owner and a pre-CBS (made in March). It's in really nice shape, original and complete. It's got some dings but that chrome looks just as shiney as it did 46 years ago. I always wanted a vintage axe and I couldn't pass her up. Is it too late to fill out that registration card? :D

Here's my question, I found a lot of great info on the net about Mustang history but nothing on the "unofficial" relationship with the car. How much did the car influence the guitar? I know the car debuted a couple of months before the instrument in 1964, not just a coincidence is it?

Thanks guys,

Jack

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The feature that kills me, Brazilian rosewood! (not bad for a student guitar :wink: )

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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:41 pm
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That is a very cool guitar; it's in great shape for a 1965.

I'm pretty sure that anything made in 1965 qualifies as CBS-era; Leo closed the deal at the end of 1964 and was gone from day-to-day operations by January. Of course that really doesn't mean anything; it took until at least 1967 for any real cost-cutting to come into play with Fenders.

Brazillian rosewood was cheap and plentiful back in the 1950s and 1960s; it only became really scare and rare after it was embargoed circa 1989/1991. I'm sure cost and availabity drove the switch to other source like Indian in the 1970s; for example my 79 Lead II has a very dark Indian rosewood fingerboard.

As you pointed out the car came out about 4 months before the guitar in 1964. That being said, I suppose it's possible that the success of the car might have had something to do with the name of the guitar, but that is about it. I feel pretty certain that the car had absolutely nothing to do with the guitar's design at all. Here is why:

1. The Mustang's shape is the same as the MusicMaster and Duo-Sonic, both of which were introduced in the late 1950s.

2. The headstock was similar to the Jaguar headstock; the Jaguar had been out for a while (and was likely also named for the car/car line).

3. Since the guitar started production in August 1964, the design of the trem bridge had to take place at least 6 months in advance of that, if not more like 12 months in advance. In fact the machine work tooling for the bridge would have had to have been in place for at least a couple of months in advance of the guitar's introduction so Fender could have a stockpile of the parts for production. In all likelihood the prototypes were up an running in Leo's lab by late 1963 or at least early 1964, probably before the car was introduced in April 1964.

Of course, #3 is speculation on my part; I'm kind of assuming a timeline based on the timeline of the Strat (from the book "The Stratocaster Chronicles").


Last edited by John C on Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:43 pm
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Sweeeeeet!!!


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:54 pm
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John C wrote:
That is a very cool guitar; it's in great shape for a 1965.

I'm pretty sure that anything made in 1965 qualifies as CBS-era; Leo closed the deal at the end of 1964 and was gone from day-to-day operations by January. Of course that really doesn't mean anything; it took until at least 1967 for any real cost-cutting to come into play with Fenders.

As you pointed out the car came out about 4 months before the guitar in 1964. That being said, I suppose it's possible that the success of the car might have had something to do with the name of the guitar, but that is about it. I feel pretty certain that the car had absolutely nothing to do with the guitar's design at all. Here is why:

1. The Mustang's shape is the same as the MusicMaster and Duo-Sonic, both of which were introduced in the late 1950s.

2. The headstock was similar to the Jaguar headstock; the Jaguar had been out for a while (and was likely also named for the car/car line).

3. Since the guitar started production in August 1964, the design of the trem bridge had to take place at least 6 months in advance of that, if not more like 12 months in advance. In fact the machine work tooling for the bridge would have had to have been in place for at least a couple of months in advance of the guitar's introduction so Fender could have a stockpile of the parts for production. In all likelihood the prototypes were up an running in Leo's lab by late 1963 or at least early 1964, probably before the car was introduced in April 1964.

Of course, #3 is speculation on my part; I'm kind of assuming a timeline based on the timeline of the Strat (from the book "The Stratocaster Chronicles").


Great points, I just thought that the original paint options matching the Ford Mustang logo and later competition stripes (sporty hot rod look) kinda hints of some sort of "relationship". Who knows? Just a thought. :D

As far as CBS vs pre-CBS, I've heard both sides. Let's just say I'm glad to have one before changes were made in late '65. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:00 pm
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Art1 wrote:
Sweeeeeet!!!


Art


Thanks! I really like her a lot. I don't have my Ford Mustang anymore, but at least I have one to play now.


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:00 pm
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I have nothing to add to the car/guitar relationship but just wanted to say that is gorgeous!

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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:45 pm
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That's quite a find especially with all the case candy,I have a '65 Mustang too but she was made in October and unfortunately isn't an "L" series like yours is.I don't believe there ever was a tie in with the car though.

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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:46 pm
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There is no relationship between the guitar and the car. Both came out in 1964, and the development and tooling required to make the guitar, not to mention a likely head start on production runs to meet initial demands would mean that the mustang guitar would have already been a done deal around the time the car was released. But regardless, you scored a very nice guitar man! :D


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:57 pm
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Thanks guys! Here's the funny thing about all this , vintage is cool no matter what "series" it is or which version of Fender made your guitar. My first Gibson was a Norlin era Les Paul Custom. Now a few years ago, collectors laughed at Norlins because they cut corners compared to the "classics"(sound familiar?). Well guess what, today Norlins are no longer a "bad" word and for the most part made better than many current USA models. As time passes, CBS stuff looks better and better. When CBS turned vintage, those negative labels started falling away. Just like with Norlins, CBS models will increase in value and popularity because the stuff is old. Vintage is all good in my book.

ps: I'm in no way comparing present day quality control issues between Fender and Gibson because there is no comparison. Yes, I'm one of those angry ex-Gibson people. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:11 pm
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Steve-oh-no wrote:
There is no relationship between the guitar and the car. Both came out in 1964, and the development and tooling required to make the guitar, not to mention a likely head start on production runs to meet initial demands would mean that the mustang guitar would have already been a done deal around the time the car was released. But regardless, you scored a very nice guitar man! :D


Oh man! I can dream can't I? :lol: Thanks for the kind words.


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:55 am
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As memory serves me, CBS officially took over control of Fender on January 5, 1965. I remember when the Mustang came out. I had received 1964 Jaguar in April of '64 as a graduation gift and as a result of sending in my registration card, I received Fender News magazines in the mail I think every three months. The Mustang's introduction was announced in one of those issues. Sometime later after CBS acquired Fender, that magazine stopped coming.

Your Mustang looks fabulous.. truly a fortunate find. Good for you.


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:32 am
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SouthernBoyVA wrote:
As memory serves me, CBS officially took over control of Fender on January 5, 1965. I remember when the Mustang came out. I had received 1964 Jaguar in April of '64 as a graduation gift and as a result of sending in my registration card, I received Fender News magazines in the mail I think every three months. The Mustang's introduction was announced in one of those issues. Sometime later after CBS acquired Fender, that magazine stopped coming.

Your Mustang looks fabulous.. truly a fortunate find. Good for you.


Thanks! Sometimes I think guitars just wait around for me to buy 'em. :D Yep, CBS took over "in name only" early '65 but didn't make any changes in production until late '65. From my research, the changes that were made were mostly cosmetic, their guitars were solid. Just for an example, google "Fender Mustang story" and see what you come up with, good stuff. Based on what I've read, 2/3's of 1965 was still done Leo's way and 1/3 was done CBS' way. The difference? Rosewood, tuning keys, plastic and other cosmetics. I'm sure the other models were done the same way that year.


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:49 am
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stang65 wrote:
SouthernBoyVA wrote:
As memory serves me, CBS officially took over control of Fender on January 5, 1965. I remember when the Mustang came out. I had received 1964 Jaguar in April of '64 as a graduation gift and as a result of sending in my registration card, I received Fender News magazines in the mail I think every three months. The Mustang's introduction was announced in one of those issues. Sometime later after CBS acquired Fender, that magazine stopped coming.

Your Mustang looks fabulous.. truly a fortunate find. Good for you.


Thanks! Sometimes I think guitars just wait around for me to buy 'em. :D Yep, CBS took over "in name only" early '65 but didn't make any changes in production until late '65. From my research, the changes that were made were mostly cosmetic, their guitars were solid. Just for an example, google "Fender Mustang story" and see what you come up with, good stuff. Based on what I've read, 2/3's of 1965 was still done Leo's way and 1/3 was done CBS' way. The difference? Rosewood, tuning keys, plastic and other cosmetics. I'm sure the other models were done the same way that year.


The first example of a post-CBS change I saw was when I was checking out a new Jaguar back then and comparing it to my pre-CBS '64 Jag. The thing I remember was the bridge. On the '64 Jaguar, each string rode across what looked like a threaded 3/16" bolt that had two allen screws on both outside top edges. The post-CBS version used smooth metal pieces. I thought that was strange since the strings would easily slide on the smooth piece of medal, but not so much on my '64 Jaguar.


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:04 am
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That is strange. I find it hard to believe that all these little changes had a real effect on CBS' production cost but I guess it all adds up. Too much pencil pushin', not enough axe buildin'.


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Post subject: Re: Hello, newbie w/ a question & pics!
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:31 am
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Fabulus bud, awesome!

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