It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:30 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:07 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
Hi there :)

A good friend of mine bought this inexpensive Harley Benton Mustang Copy guitar, from Thomann.

This:
https://www.thomann.de/dk/harley_benton_ms_60_vw_ltd_edition.htm

He asked if I would take the time to give it a proper set-up and check that everything is as it should be. I've now been working on it for a while, and I can't seem to get the vibrate system working right..
First off, yes, I do know that on inexpensive copy guitars, like the Harley Bentons, the parts isn't the best and it can be a challenge to get a guitar like that to play and stay in tune...

The problem the guitar has is that when the vibrato system is being used, then the vibrato arm won't return to the same spot. Which causes the guitar to play out of tune....

I took out the vibrato system, to see what adjustments I could make, and if it could solve the problem. The only adjustable possibility I found was a screw that would determine the tension of the spring. I've tried to adjust it a bit, but it didn't really seem to help solve the problem...

Now I'm here, asking for some info/advice on how to solve the problem... if even possible..
I've explained the situation to my friend and if it's not solved, then it'll be returned to Thomann.
He'll then get another one, just with a standard TOM bridge and a standard tail piece - like on evey les paul.

Thanks, guys!

_________________
Bringing a guitar back to life is worth every hour spent!


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:40 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4240
Besides the vibrato itself, the other very common culprit for 'not returning in tune' problems is the nut.
And there you run into trouble; if you replace the inferior plastic nut with a new bone one, you can't return the guitar regardless if you got it fixed or not.

So, I'd suggest either returning the guitar now and getting another hardtail one, or locking the vibrato and using this guitar only as a hardtail.

On cheap guitars, it's always wiser to choose a hardtail model. (Telecaster seems to be so bulletproof a design that even the cheapest Squiers do their job...)
A new nut is always a good upgrade - often the nut needs work anyway, so while one's at it...

And BTW: the Squier Mustang HH costs only some thirty € more...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:09 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
Yeah, of course the nut can be a critical factor too - thanks :-)

A little update, though.
My friend didn't want to return it, so we went over the guitar again, and tried to find a solution to the vibrate issue.
My friend then pointed out "What if we just take out the spring and turn the spring screw around?"

I then noticed that the screw holding the spring would actually fit the spring compartment, if we just turned it around.
So we did that, and now the vibrate system is locked; the arm and vibrate can't be moved/used.
Don't know what you say to that, jmattis??
To me it seems like it worked. The guitar is playing in tune much better and everything seems fine.

Though, I have a little problem with the intonation on some strings; the treble ones..
But I guess that wouldn't be caused by the vibrate fix.. It seems more like to be caused by the poor quality TOM bridge that is on the guitar... Wouldn't you say so too??

At least I would like to order a new and better bridge to actually see if that could solve the problem :-)

Let me know what you think!

Thanks & cheers!

_________________
Bringing a guitar back to life is worth every hour spent!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:50 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4240
I have no idea what bridge a HB Mustang has, so I won't comment on the upside down screw solution (pics from the trem inside?), but usually just tightening the spring will do - if there is no trem lock button. On a very cheap guitar, all solutions are ~OK, including screwing the trem through the body. :wink: Oh, and consider the pros/cons of taking the trem arm off on the locked trem - less chance of breaks, more chance of losing it.

On intonation:
You have done the 'rough intonation' test; measured that the real string lenghts match the scale lenght? And that the relief is OK? (Adjust the neck straight, add as little relief as needed, if any.)
Sometimes on TOM style bridges you get better intonation by turning the saddle 180° so the slanted edge is the other way. Sometimes shimming the neck helps, although it shouldn't. Sometimes you need to compromise (even more than usual) and compensate with the tuning. And then there are the compensated nuts...
And remember, a guitar will never play in perfect tune on every string, every fret.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:28 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
Well, the bridge is kind of a Mustang bridge - kind of oval - but without the two springs in the compartment.
On the HB there's only one spring and one screw to adjust the tension of the spring itself.
Yeah, I forgot to take a picture, unfortunately.. It was my plan to!

When you say "measured that the real string lenghts match the scale lenght" - how would I do that, exactly?
The relief is set and should be fine.

I've tried turning the saddles, but the cheap HB TOM bridge can't turn the saddles... That's why I'm considering a new bridge.
I would like to compromise on the intonation but the G and B strings are actually really bad.. Like really off!

I've taken a look at the nut and it needed some filing for the right slot depths - that helped out a little.

Haha, of course not, but I would like to get a little closer than I am right now :)

_________________
Bringing a guitar back to life is worth every hour spent!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:12 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4240
KenniB wrote:
When you say "measured that the real string lenghts match the scale lenght" - how would I do that, exactly?
Fender calls it "Intonation (Roughing it out)" in all their setup instructions , see the link.
What I mean is that you measure if the highE free string length (= from nut to saddle) really is what it should be (= the nominal scale length). Fender Setup Guide

KenniB wrote:
The relief is set and should be fine.
Whaddya mean, "should be"..? It is fine or it isn't. :wink: That is, if you have intonation problems, measure the relief. And I recommend as little as possible - especially on thin neck guitars where the neck needs support from the truss rod.

KenniB wrote:
I've tried turning the saddles, but the cheap HB TOM bridge can't turn the saddles... That's why I'm considering a new bridge.

OK, non-turnable-saddles didn't show on the Thomann pics. If you upgrade the bridge, remember to check the radius, Thomann doesn't tell it.

KenniB wrote:
I would like to compromise on the intonation but the G and B strings are actually really bad.. Like really off!
Sharp or flat?
On the whole fretboard or very sharp on the first frets worst, getting better if you play higher frets?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:45 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14045
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
A $120 guitar....you got what have you pay for :(


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:07 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
Oh yeah, that's where I've heard "Roughing the intonation out" mentioned - thanks! I'll take a look at that :)

Sorry, the relief is almost as straight/flat as possible.

The way the saddles are held together in the bridge, by a screw and a nut, kind of makes it look like the saddles can't be flipped. Well, I'll take another look at it :)
Yes, I'll remember to check for the radius - thanks. It's a shame that those specs aren't given by Thomann.....

The intonation on the treble strings is flat - a semi tone, maybe a little more than that...
That seems really extreme to me... I haven't experienced anything like this on other guitars I've set up...
It's sharp when I fret the 12th fret to check the intonation. A little better on the first frets, but definitely worst from 12th fret and higher...

stratele52 wrote:
A $120 guitar....you got what have you pay for :(

Yeah, I know, I ain't complaining, I just want to be able to give my friend the guitar in reasonable shape.. hehe :)

_________________
Bringing a guitar back to life is worth every hour spent!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:11 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4240
stratele52 wrote:
you got what have you pay for
You're of course right, and it ain't even a FMIC product. But what a great learning opportunity!
Anyways, there's of course no sense in investing 200$€£ worth of parts in a 100$€£ guitar.

@KenniB:
OK, with that intonation description I'd say we can rule out the nut slots.

I'm sure you can take the saddles off - after all, someone put them there. If flipping them works, good.
I can't evaluate if grinding the saddle tops so you'd get a different contact point is possible here, but usually on cheap guitar parts you'd just grind through the hard surface and ruin the saddles.
Check also how the bridge posts sit in the holes, there may be wobble.
And check the intonation at 5th/17th fret instead of 0/12th; you might get a better overall result - although a semitone is really a lot. If the problem comes from of misplaced frets, there is no reasonable cure.

How's the action on the guitar? If it's relatively low on 6th fret but noticeably higher on 16th, the 'travel distance' of a pressed string can make it sharp. In that case, a very thin shim might change the neck angle just right, bringing the strings closer to the fretboard on upper frets. Or test it with (and I'm grinding my teeth writing this), a little more relief.

The guitar comes with .009 set, which are quite loose and prone to finger pressure on a 24" (actually, HB says 610 mm) scale. A .010" (even a .011 if your friend's fingers tolerate it) set is worth considering, especially if that guitar has tall frets.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:19 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14045
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
I know you are not complaining.
You should read that a good ( and working ) tremolo worth more than the price of this guitar.

Yes is a good way to learn with a low budget guitar


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:44 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
stratele52 wrote:
I know you are not complaining.
You should read that a good ( and working ) tremolo worth more than the price of this guitar.

Yes is a good way to learn with a low budget guitar


stratele52 - Trust me, I know what good and working guitars are, I've worked on quite a few!
As I said, my friend just bought this HB guitar, he play for fun so I'm just working on it.
If he had asked me, then I would have pointed him in another direction - at least to a hardtail/another price range.

_________________
Bringing a guitar back to life is worth every hour spent!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Harley Benton Mustang Copy - Vibrato help!
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:38 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:45 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
@jmattis:

I looked at the nut slots, when I started working, and filed them down a little.

Regarding the saddles, then I'll have to take another look at them.
To me it just seemed like I couldn't, and it felt like I had to use excessive force...
I'll give it another go.

By grinding the saddle tops you mean changing the contact point/break angle, right?
Looks like I can create a better contact point/break angle on the strings - might be worth a try.

The bridge posts looks fine, they do not wobble...

Alright, I'll try checking the intonation at the 5th/17th fret.
Yeah, it's a lot, and that made me kind of nervous too :)
Hopefully it's not misplaced frets...

I've set the action to roughly 1.6mm on the treble side and roughly 2.0mm on the bass side.
No buzzing or fretting out. That's usually where I set the action.
The overall string travel distance looks good, there's no really high spaces, as I see it. Looks normal :)

Yeah, the guitar came with .009 and I changed it to a .010 set, so that should be just fine.

_________________
Bringing a guitar back to life is worth every hour spent!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: