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Post subject: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:04 am
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I know this might seem like a silly question, but in all the days I played in the past I changed out my strings to the same size each time. On my present Modern Player Tele, I want to change out the .009 - .042 strings that came with the guitar to .010 - .046 to give it a little more deeper tone. Just a bit too twangy for the Ventures music I wish to play. My concern is in regards to the nut and a possible change to the set up of the neck. When they manufactured the guitar, is it possible that they grooved out the nut to only accommodate the set of 9s that it came strung with? I'm hoping that I don't have to grove out the slots in the nut a tad to allow for the slightly larger string width.

Thanks for you help guys.

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:57 am
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Change up to a set of 10s - you're unlikely to need the nut slots filing bigger, although you might possibly need to tighten the truss rod a touch.
Take some measurements before you change the strings (fret clearances at the 12th fret) before you start.
If you do get some movement in the neck from the change in string tension then you should be able to change things back to the original spec with a truss rod tightening exercise.

Going up to 10s won't make your tone any deeper, but it might make the strings flap around a little bit less.

On the subject of tone James Burton has always used light strings, and he has always had great tone http://www.james-burton.net/guitars/


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 10:23 am
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stratmangler wrote:
Change up to a set of 10s - you're unlikely to need the nut slots filing bigger, although you might possibly need to tighten the truss rod a touch.
Take some measurements before you change the strings (fret clearances at the 12th fret) before you start.
If you do get some movement in the neck from the change in string tension then you should be able to change things back to the original spec with a truss rod tightening exercise.

Going up to 10s won't make your tone any deeper, but it might make the strings flap around a little bit less.

On the subject of tone James Burton has always used light strings, and he has always had great tone http://www.james-burton.net/guitars/


Thanks stratmangler. I was thinking that that might be the case. As long as I don't have to make any alterations to the nut, making light adjustments to the neck is no problem.

Talking about JB - man he's got to be one of the best players around. I remember years back when he he was young and played lead guitar with Rick Nelson's band, the king Elvis Presley and numerous others. Here's a brief video of him explaining a bit of his past and how much he loved playing with Elvis.



Here's another one of him playing some excellent lead with Roy Orbison (Pretty Woman), and the Boss.



Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 10:57 am
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A second opinion :twisted:
I support the habit of doing a full setup if you change string gauge - anything less will just leave too much for happenstance.
And besides, a Tele is so simple that it's a good way to learn how-to: Tele Setup Guide

So, my advice is to at least check & fix/adjust if needed, the saddles (condition), nut (height & condition), relief, action, intonation, pickup height.
BTW, the Fender way to measure relief is capo on 1st, press the last fret, measure gap (fret top to string bottom) at 8th fret. Just measuring "fret clearances at the 12th fret" won't say much about relief.

BTW, a neat DIY home use trick for nut groove fine tuning is here: Ceri's instructions to fix a pre-cut nut
Scroll down to "Bluffer's nut files" section. The paper/old string trick works fine in cleaning, polishing and widening nut slots (although I recommend nut slot files if the slots need major deepening). And remember to lube every string/other contact point.


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:02 am
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jmattis wrote:
A second opinion :twisted:
I support the habit of doing a full setup if you change string gauge - anything less will just leave too much for happenstance.
And besides, a Tele is so simple that it's a good way to learn how-to: Tele Setup Guide

So, my advice is to at least check & fix/adjust if needed, the saddles (condition), nut (height & condition), relief, action, intonation, pickup height.
BTW, the Fender way to measure relief is capo on 1st, press the last fret, measure gap (fret top to string bottom) at 8th fret. Just measuring "fret clearances at the 12th fret" won't say much about relief.

BTW, a neat DIY home use trick for nut groove fine tuning is here: Ceri's instructions to fix a pre-cut nut
Scroll down to "Bluffer's nut files" section. The paper/old string trick works fine in cleaning, polishing and widening nut slots (although I recommend nut slot files if the slots need major deepening). And remember to lube every string/other contact point.


Great advise, thanks. I should learn to do a lot of this stuff myself. Thanks for the links.

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:30 pm
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jmattis wrote:
BTW, the Fender way to measure relief is capo on 1st, press the last fret, measure gap (fret top to string bottom) at 8th fret. Just measuring "fret clearances at the 12th fret" won't say much about relief. .

I find that a capo and feeler gauges are not necessary for truss rod adjustments.
Simply do it by eye to the desired string height and check each fret for buzzing.
Sight down the neck if you wish to view your relief.
This assumes that your bridge saddles are set to a proper height, and are set consistent with the neck radius or crown.


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:34 am
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When giving advice on the forum, and/or to beginners, I'd say it's wiser to follow the standard operation procedure - and use a feeler gauge for accurate measuring. On relief, a difference between a "perfect" and a "horrible" setup (in brackets, because there are no absolute right answers suitable for every guitar, every player) can be .002"/0,05mm; not many aspiring luthiers can 'simply do it by eye'.

With experience, the go by feel adjusting does become the SOP - although I still measure if I have a problem guitar under repair.

Your opinion may of course be different, and I respect your right to present it.


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 4:46 pm
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jmattis wrote:
...not many aspiring luthiers can 'simply do it by eye'.
With experience, the go by feel adjusting does become the SOP - although I still measure if I have a problem guitar under repair.

Your opinion may of course be different, and I respect your right to present it.

Perhaps I should have framed my opinion in terms of 1/4 turn, to a maximum of 1/2 turn of the truss rod, when making truss rod adjustments at any given time.
Clockwise turning of the truss rod lowers the strings; counter-clockwise turning raises the strings.
This advice for adjusting the truss rod assumes that the bridge saddles are adjusted to a proper height, which is normally, fairly low, and that the saddle heights follow the neck radius or crown; and that you use "common sense" regarding what looks and feels right when adjusting the truss rod, proceeding in 1/4 turn increments.

I have never used a capo and a feeler gauge to adjust a truss rod, and I know of no reason why such a complicated procedure should be ever be attempted to be used by anyone, to adjust a truss rod, as long as you check each string at each fret and you don't get any fret buzz following the adjustment.
I see no advantage to the measurement method of truss rod adjustment.
In fact, I believe that the measurement method would lead one to fail to see the "forest", while focusing on measuring the "trees".

However, I do see a reason why Fender or other companies would want to define the truss rod adjustment by a measurement method in their instructions, because "common sense" subjectivity is difficult to define.
I believe "common sense" subjectivity for most persons wanting low action, is when the strings appear to the eye to be about 1/16" (1.6mm) above the fret board (or approximately 1/32" --.08mm above the frets) without a capo.
Adjusting a truss rod is not rocket science.
In fact, anyone with "common sense" can "simply do it by eye".
But if through an abundance of caution, anyone wishes to follow the Fender guidelines on how to make truss rod adjustments, please, by all means, do so.


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 12:51 am
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[You're (again) trying to pass your opinions as facts... But be that as it may, the facts don't check out.]

First of all, the truss rod should be adjusted before action. (Adjusting relief affects action, but adjusting action does'n affect relief...)
Second, a "1/4 turn" gives different results on different necks and string gauges. It's a good guideline so no one will turn the nut a dozen full turns at a time, but not for estimating the achieved relief (and: who knows what's the original position...)
Third, "about 1/16" (1.6mm) above the fret board (or approximately 1/32" --.08mm above the frets)" is downright false. Vintage frets height vs Jumbo frets height, for one - meaning: action is always from the fret top to the string bottom. Plus, the strings aren't at the same distance from every fret (think zero fret guitars with all frets leveled...).

The "capo on 1st, press on last, measure on 8th" method takes the string action out of the equasion, so you measure just the relief (bending of the neck) - that's why it does the job. (You can of course use a ruler, too.)
And the feeler gauge measuring... well, like I said, can you just eyeball a .002"/0,05mm difference (or even .010/0,25mm)?

The "as long as you check each string at each fret and you don't get any fret buzz" is easy to achieve on any guitar - but the action may then be sky high. :wink:

I'd say there is a reason behind all guitar manufacturers (/luthiers/guitar techs) giving similar instructions on guitar setup. Stop your trolling, broaden your horizons & think about it for a while - you might guess why.


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:50 am
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[Mr. Science, you are (again) trying to pass along bad advice and nonsense as fact...]

First, you ALWAYS adjust the action or bridge saddle height before adjusting a truss rod!!
If the guitar was properly set up at one time, then you should not have to adjust the bridge saddle height at all because the bridge height should be properly set and it should not change over time.
After adjusting the truss rod, is it possible that you may wish to revisit the bridge saddle height?
Of course, that's called having "common sense".
But generally speaking, once the bridge is set at a proper height, and set consistent with the radius or crown of the neck, the bridge does not normally require additional adjustment.

Second, on a Fender neck, adjusting the neck in 1/4 turn increments is normally safe and effective.
No one should care what the original position of the adjustment was because the neck has moved.
That is why you are adjusting the truss rod.
jmattis wrote:
"about 1/16" (1.6mm) above the fret board (or approximately 1/32" --.08mm above the frets)" is downright false. Vintage frets height vs Jumbo frets height, for one - meaning: action is always from the fret top to the string bottom. Plus, the strings aren't at the same distance from every fret....

These "common sense," subjective, "eyeball" measurements, are just that -- "COMMON SENSE" SUBJECTIVE "EYEBALL" MEASUREMENTS.
If you had any "common sense" you would be able to anticipate that these subjective "eyeball" measurements are generally applicable to medium jumbo frets which are the most popular fret size.
Regardless of what size frets you have, if you fail to have an ability to subjectively exhibit "common sense," when adjusting a truss rod on a Fender electric guitar, then you should by all means, sit there with your capo and feeler gauges and have fun adjusting your truss rod, while pretending you are solving some sort of science experiment. :lol:

jmattis wrote:
The "as long as you check each string at each fret and you don't get any fret buzz" is easy to achieve on any guitar - but the action may then be sky high. :wink:

The action will not be "sky high" because if necessary, YOU ALWAYS ADJUST THE ACTION AT THE BRIDGE SADDLES FIRST!!!

jmattis wrote:
I'd say there is a reason behind all guitar manufacturers (/luthiers/guitar techs) giving similar instructions on guitar setup. Stop your trolling, broaden your horizons & think about it for a while - you might guess why.

As I have already stated, the reason for measurement based truss rod adjustment instructions by manufacturers is to avoid trying to describe a subjective, common sense approach to such an adjustment, such as I have described.
The reason for this is that it is subjective in nature and requires common sense, something that some persons apparently lack.

So I suggest that you stop your trolling and broaden your horizons, and maybe you can actually develop some degree of "common sense" (I know it's a long shot, and would obviously be a very doubtful evolution...), and then you may be able to figure out that not all luthiers, guitar techs, or guitar hobbyists, sit around playing with feeler gauges, and pretend that they are solving a truss rod science experiment.

Good night Mr. Science......, or should I say, Mr. Peabody..... :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 10:59 am
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MickJagger wrote:
First, you ALWAYS adjust the action or bridge saddle height before adjusting a truss rod!!

Bullshit, like the rest of your post. I could continue with a long list of prestigious luthiers, guitar techs etc. with their instructions stating the proper setup order, but maybe letting you google that yourself will keep you from posting on the forum just a little longer.

The conversation with you stops here on my part; on the note that I seriously propose everyone on the forum to seek setup advice elsewhere than on MJ's posts.


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:08 pm
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jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
First, you ALWAYS adjust the action or bridge saddle height before adjusting a truss rod!!

Bullshit, like the rest of your post. I could continue with a long list of prestigious luthiers, guitar techs etc. with their instructions stating the proper setup order, but maybe letting you google that yourself will keep you from posting on the forum just a little longer.

The conversation with you stops here on my part; on the note that I seriously propose everyone on the forum to seek setup advice elsewhere than on MJ's posts.


For what it's worth. I'm not an expert, but simply a novice with this subject, but with all the controversy I thought I would do a little digging on this. Here's an article from guitarrepairbench.com on the subject. Reading through the article one comes down to the section "How do I Adjust the Action on My Guitar?" Reading into it, he mentions the steps one must take, and in this order. First: adjust the truss rod. Second: adjust the nut. Well they got me there, as I would assume one has to have a special nut in order to do that. Thirdly: adjust the bridge. Like I said, I am a novice, and as a novice, I can only go by what I hear and what I read. Here's the article:

http://www.guitarrepairbench.com/electr ... uitar.html

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 10:15 pm
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F-Stop wrote:
jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
First, you ALWAYS adjust the action or bridge saddle height before adjusting a truss rod!!

Bullshit, like the rest of your post. I could continue with a long list of prestigious luthiers, guitar techs etc. with their instructions stating the proper setup order, but maybe letting you google that yourself will keep you from posting on the forum just a little longer.

The conversation with you stops here on my part; on the note that I seriously propose everyone on the forum to seek setup advice elsewhere than on MJ's posts.


For what it's worth. I'm not an expert, but simply a novice with this subject, but with all the controversy I thought I would do a little digging on this. Here's an article from guitarrepairbench.com on the subject. Reading through the article one comes down to the section "How do I Adjust the Action on My Guitar?" Reading into it, he mentions the steps one must take, and in this order. First: adjust the truss rod. Second: adjust the nut. Well they got me there, as I would assume one has to have a special nut in order to do that. Thirdly: adjust the bridge. Like I said, I am a novice, and as a novice, I can only go by what I hear and what I read. Here's the article:

http://www.guitarrepairbench.com/electr ... uitar.html

Cheers

To each their own.
It makes absolutely no sense to adjust the truss rod when the bridge height and the basic action of the guitar has not been at least, initially set.
That is simply "common sense".

Thank you Mr. Peabody, for sparing us your "long list of prestigious luthiers, guitar techs etc. and their instructions stating the proper setup order."
Have fun playing with your feeler gauges while performing your "Brain Salad Surgery". :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 1:02 am
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F-Stop wrote:
[ and in this order. First: adjust the truss rod. Second: adjust the nut. Well they got me there, as I would assume one has to have a special nut in order to do that.

On the nut part, your link is referring to the same procedure I mentioned above (Ceri's instructions to adjusting a pre-cut nut).
Usually, it doesn't matter if you do the nut job first - but on rare occasions a combination of a low-as-you-can-go nut and a bi-flex type (dual action) truss rod can do unexpected tricks (straighten the neck -> 1st fret clearance drops too low).


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Post subject: Re: Changing out the strings on my Tele
Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 9:43 am
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F-Stop wrote:
...For what it's worth. I'm not an expert, but simply a novice with this subject, but with all the controversy I thought I would do a little digging on this. Here's an article from guitarrepairbench.com on the subject. Reading through the article one comes down to the section "How do I Adjust the Action on My Guitar?" Reading into it, he mentions the steps one must take, and in this order. First: adjust the truss rod. Second: adjust the nut. Well they got me there, as I would assume one has to have a special nut in order to do that. Thirdly: adjust the bridge. Like I said, I am a novice, and as a novice, I can only go by what I hear and what I read. Here's the article:

http://www.guitarrepairbench.com/electr ... uitar.html

Cheers

I did not have time to properly respond to your comment in my last post.
I will therefore try to do so now.

First, the adjustment to the nut that is described in the Guitarrepairbench.com article cited, would consider whether the nut grooves should be filed lower, to lower string action relative to the bridge and truss rod adjustment.
This does not involve a "special" or adjustable nut.
On a Fender electric guitar, I would suggest that you assume that the nut is correct, unless you are getting a weird sound from one of your strings that sounds like a "sitar".
Then I would have a professional examine your guitar and possibly adjust your nut.
This normally has more to do with the width of the nut groove, not the depth.
Any adjustment to the nut should be done by a professional.

Now, getting to the point: My statement that "you ALWAYS adjust the action or bridge saddle height before adjusting a truss rod!!" was unfortunately, not stated by me in the proper context.
This may have led to some confusion, so I will try to state the reasons for initially adjusting the bridge saddle height, within the context of the "visual method" for adjusting truss rods, which I advocate.

If you are putting a new bridge on a guitar, or the bridge saddles are way out of adjustment for some reason, my position is that you need to initially set the bridge saddle height FIRST -- when using the "visual method" of truss rod adjustment.
This is so you have a "visual" frame of reference regarding the string action of the guitar while adjusting the truss rod.
As I previously stated, common sense may dictate that you revisit the bridge saddle height after the truss rod is adjusted.

This is why there is no hard and fast rule that should preclude an initial bridge adjustment before adjusting a truss rod, when using a "visual method" for truss rod adjustment.

In the Guitarrepairbench.com article that you cited, it states:

"Depending on what is wrong with your guitar there are different ways to adjust the action. More likely than not, the cause or your high or low action can be fixed with a simple truss rod adjustment. ...The action adjustment will be fairly simple."

This is exactly what I have previously stated.

If the action of the guitar was at one time properly set, and no adjustment of the bridge has been made, adjusting the truss rod is all that is normally required if you begin to experience fret buzz, or you begin to lose action due to temperature and humidity affecting changes in the neck.

Unfortunately, the Guitarrepairbench.com article contradicts the previously cited principle by stating:

"Generally, there are three steps the completely setting the action on your electric guitar.
Don't be fooled by some salesman at Guitar Center; in order to completely adjust the action on your electric guitar, you need to check and possibly adjust three different areas: truss rod, nut, and bridge. These adjustments must be done in this order because one adjust will affect adjustments done after it.
"

The basic reason why people generally advocate adjusting the truss rod action first is due to the fact that if string action is adjusted at the bridge first, it may be necessary to again re-adjust the bridge saddles, after the truss rod is adjusted.
I have previously admitted to this fact, as part of the common sense approach to setting up your guitar.

When using a "measurement method" to truss rod adjustment as recommended by Fender and others, a capo is used at the first fret, while depressing the sixth string at the last fret, and checking the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret with a feeler gauge.
When using the "measurement method" to adjust the truss rod, there is no need to have the action of the guitar as a visual reference point when adjusting the truss rod because the action plays no role in the "measurement method" of adjustment.

However, if the bridge saddles are way out of adjustment when the truss rod is adjusted first, it is likely that after the bridge saddle height is adjusted, that the truss rod adjustment will have to be revisited and re-adjusted.

So the argument I make is, "choose your poison," when deciding what should be adjusted first......

AGAIN: The reason why I advocate that the action should be initially set when using a "visual method" for truss rod adjustment, is that it is necessary that the strings provide a visual reference for the truss rod adjustment.

The Guitarrepairbench.com article returns to sanity by stating:

"If you adjust the truss rod and your action is set where you want it to be, there is no need to move on to (adjusting the nut and the bridge)."

This is CORRECT!!

The bottom line to what I am advocating in this thread is that the complicated measurement approach to truss rod adjustment, using a capo and feeler gauge measurement, is completely unnecessary.

You can sight down the neck and examine the relief in the neck.
What is normally desirable is a very slight amount of "concave" relief in the neck from it being perfectly straight, when the strings are in tune.
Next, look at the string height and see if it is at a height where you want it.
Adjust the truss rod accordingly.

For most, but not all players, the action will be set as low as possible without producing fret buzz.
I have provided suggested eyeball measurements for the string action height.
To the extent that these suggested visual measurements are perceived by some persons as being inaccurate, or that the suggested visual measurements are too generic due to variations in fret size; the idea that I am advocating is that you should adjust the truss rod to where YOU subjectively want the final string action to be, both "visually" and by feel.

Then check each string at each fret for string buzz.
If there is string buzz, you can back off the truss rod.
If you don't wish to back off the truss rod, for fear of losing action, and the fret buzz is only slight, on only one or two strings, at only one or two frets, you can then see if the bridge saddle(s) can be adjusted to an acceptable height to eliminate the buzz, without disrupting the feel of the strings due to unevenness.
Remember, the bridge saddle height should generally follow the curvature of the neck radius or crown.

I hope this clarifies the "visual method" of truss rod adjustment that I advocate should be used by anyone that doesn't want to play around with capos and feeler gauges.

I am sure that this clarification will undoubtedly remain unsatisfactory to certain rigid, reactionaries, the "usual suspects," who with rigidly closed minds, troll these threads looking for someone to defecate on, and who inter alia, have been brainwashed into thinking that there is only one acceptable approach, the "measurement method;" that should always be followed when adjusting a truss rod on a Fender electric guitar.

Remember, this is NOT rocket science, and this is NOT brain surgery.
A truss rod adjustment is something that anyone can successfully accomplish on their own by using common sense, without the use of capos and feeler gauges, by visually looking at the string action while adjusting a Fender truss rod in 1/4 turn increments; never exceeding 1/2 turn at any time of adjustment; and never applying undue force; followed by checking each string at each fret for fret buzz.

http://www.guitarrepairbench.com/electr ... s_rod.html

While advocating the "measurement approach" to truss rod adjustment, the above Guitarrepairbench.com article on "Truss Rod Adjustment," makes the following admissions regarding the subjective nature of truss rod adjustment:

"Remember as I wrote on the action adjustment page, there is no right or wrong amount of relief in your neck..... Usually a slight amount of relief is appropriate. Just like anything else in adjusting guitars, neck relief is a player's preference. It depends on the style of instrument and player. You should try to adjust your truss rod until your guitar neck is flat and play it. Then you can continue to add a slight amount of relief until your neck feels comfortable. Since the neck changes with the seasons, this adjustment will be fairly often. You will get used to how much relief you prefer in your neck."

This is why there is absolutely no need to perform complicated measurements, and to conform to such an orthodoxy for adjusting a truss rod, because there is no absolute right or wrong amount of relief that a guitar neck should have.


Last edited by MickJagger on Sun May 24, 2015 12:08 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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