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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:25 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
Your reference to Yngwie Malmsteen and scalloped fretboards is not relevant to this discussion, unless you wish to qualify your statement by acknowledging that the form of the speed metal, tapping style of playing that you are describing, may be an exception to the general rule that Jumbo frets are generally an impediment to faster and easier guitar playing if you are not a beginning player, or a player with very limited skills.

:roll:
Just one post before you stated you had this opinion, now you're trying to present it as a fact..?

Anyway, you're totally wrong. Relaxing the grip is one key to faster & easier playing in every music style, from flamenco to fusion - and with jumbos you "have to" lighten the grip, otherwise you play out of tune - or feel the speed bumps when gliding up&down on the neck... And: even pro players develop cramps, not only beginners.
Of course, there is the "SRV school style force playing", which chooses a different approach - but even on that scene: GTRPlayer Mag Jumbo frets article

Don't get me wrong; jumbos are not for everybody.
But categorically dooming them, based on your own one time experience, is just bull. They do have their purpose and plus sides. Think miniscallops.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:27 am
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jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
Your reference to Yngwie Malmsteen and scalloped fretboards is not relevant to this discussion, unless you wish to qualify your statement by acknowledging that the form of the speed metal, tapping style of playing that you are describing, may be an exception to the general rule that Jumbo frets are generally an impediment to faster and easier guitar playing if you are not a beginning player, or a player with very limited skills.

:roll:
Just one post before you stated you had this opinion, now you're trying to present it as a fact..?

Anyway, you're totally wrong. Relaxing the grip is one key to faster & easier playing in every music style, from flamenco to fusion - and with jumbos you "have to" lighten the grip, otherwise you play out of tune - or feel the speed bumps when gliding up&down on the neck... And: even pro players develop cramps, not only beginners.
Of course, there is the "SRV school style force playing", which chooses a different approach - but even on that scene: GTRPlayer Mag Jumbo frets article

Don't get me wrong; jumbos are not for everybody.
But categorically dooming them, based on your own one time experience, is just bull. They do have their purpose and plus sides. Think miniscallops.

I am categorically dooming Jumbo frets -- FOR MOST PEOPLE AND MOST STYLES OF PLAYING -- based on 30 years of playing and having played jumbo frets exclusively for at least 10 years.
If you disagree with that, then we will just have to disagree.
Count the number of Fender Teles with Jumbo frets.
That should tell you something.....


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 6:15 am
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MickJagger wrote:
If you disagree with that, then we will just have to disagree

I agree. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:28 pm
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jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
If you disagree with that, then we will just have to disagree

I agree. :mrgreen:

Just wondering if you even own a guitar with Jumbo frets, or are just playing games?


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:40 am
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MickJagger wrote:
If you get a buzz at the top frets again, there is no need to take the guitar to a guitar tech.
Simply turn the truss rod in the head-stock with an Allen key, 1/4 turn or less, counter-clockwise.
This adds a small amount of relief to the neck.
Repeat if necessary.


This is completely invalid information. The relief does not affect the top frets at all, only the bendable part of the neck. Anything above approximately the 17th fret is going to be pretty much unaffected.
You'll actually make things worse, because you increase the action on the middle frets but not on the top, so when you depress a string at the middle of the fretboard, you move the string even closer to the frets at the top, and cause more buzz.

To increase the action at the top frets, either:
- Adjust the action at the bridge
- Adjust the microtilt if there is a microtilt adjustment screw
- Put a shim in the neck pocket if there isn't
... but leave the truss rod alone, unless you need to adjust the dip in the middle.

And if there's a pronounced "ski jump", take it to a luthier. Crown dressing will help, but if the warp is too extreme, the fretboard might have to be sculpted.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:51 am
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arth1 wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
If you get a buzz at the top frets again, there is no need to take the guitar to a guitar tech.
Simply turn the truss rod in the head-stock with an Allen key, 1/4 turn or less, counter-clockwise.
This adds a small amount of relief to the neck.
Repeat if necessary.


This is completely invalid information. The relief does not affect the top frets at all, only the bendable part of the neck. Anything above approximately the 17th fret is going to be pretty much unaffected.
You'll actually make things worse, because you increase the action on the middle frets but not on the top, so when you depress a string at the middle of the fretboard, you move the string even closer to the frets at the top, and cause more buzz.

To increase the action at the top frets, either:
- Adjust the action at the bridge
- Adjust the microtilt if there is a microtilt adjustment screw
- Put a shim in the neck pocket if there isn't
... but leave the truss rod alone, unless you need to adjust the dip in the middle.

And if there's a pronounced "ski jump", take it to a luthier. Crown dressing will help, but if the warp is too extreme, the fretboard might have to be sculpted.


Thanks for the help here. I did take it back to the Luthier, and all is well now. The action is still great and there's no more buzzing. Plays beautiful.

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:08 am
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Funny the debate about "jumbo" versus "medium jumbo" frets on the Modern Player Tele... I just tried my new one out last night and compared to all my other guitars (2 Paul Reed Smiths, a Gibson, 2 Epiphones and an Agile) the frets on this Tele are TINY. It might as well be a fretless in comparison, lol... And never once in all my 20 years of playing have any of my frets gotten in the way of my fingers. I guess I' still a beginner after all these years? :)


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:28 am
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MacGyvercaster wrote:
Funny the debate about "jumbo" versus "medium jumbo" frets on the Modern Player Tele... I just tried my new one out last night and compared to all my other guitars (2 Paul Reed Smiths, a Gibson, 2 Epiphones and an Agile) the frets on this Tele are TINY. It might as well be a fretless in comparison, lol... And never once in all my 20 years of playing have any of my frets gotten in the way of my fingers. I guess I' still a beginner after all these years? :)


Well then, from one beginner to another . . . :lol: . I'm assuming that you also purchased a Tele Modern Player. The Luthier that set up the neck on mine mentioned that the only difference between medium jumbo and a jumbo frets is in the width, but I'm sure you already know that. Whatever the controversy, I'm quite happy in the way it plays. Perhaps I should hold off in becoming an accomplished player so to avoid being ticked off with the guitar. I'll at least wait until I can afford another. :D

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:28 am
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F-Stop wrote:
MacGyvercaster wrote:
Funny the debate about "jumbo" versus "medium jumbo" frets on the Modern Player Tele... I just tried my new one out last night and compared to all my other guitars (2 Paul Reed Smiths, a Gibson, 2 Epiphones and an Agile) the frets on this Tele are TINY. It might as well be a fretless in comparison, lol... And never once in all my 20 years of playing have any of my frets gotten in the way of my fingers. I guess I' still a beginner after all these years? :)


Well then, from one beginner to another . . . :lol: . I'm assuming that you also purchased a Tele Modern Player. The Luthier that set up the neck on mine mentioned that the only difference between medium jumbo and a jumbo frets is in the width, but I'm sure you already know that. Whatever the controversy, I'm quite happy in the way it plays. Perhaps I should hold off in becoming an accomplished player so to avoid being ticked off with the guitar. I'll at least wait until I can afford another. :D

Cheers


To be honest, I have no idea what defines "jumbo", "medium jumbo" or any other similar term in fret wire any more than I do in eggs, lol... My terminology used to include only "too big" and "normal" frets, but this Tele has added "damn near non-existent" to the jargon. ;)

Not saying I don't like them, but it is definitely something I'll need to get used to as a predominantly PRS/Gibson style player. I've had a few Strats and Teles over the years, but sold them all pretty quickly. So far, this seems like the first one I may actually bond with. And it's Chinese, who woulda thought? ;)


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:25 am
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MacGyvercaster wrote:
F-Stop wrote:
MacGyvercaster wrote:
Funny the debate about "jumbo" versus "medium jumbo" frets on the Modern Player Tele... I just tried my new one out last night and compared to all my other guitars (2 Paul Reed Smiths, a Gibson, 2 Epiphones and an Agile) the frets on this Tele are TINY. It might as well be a fretless in comparison, lol... And never once in all my 20 years of playing have any of my frets gotten in the way of my fingers. I guess I' still a beginner after all these years? :)


Well then, from one beginner to another . . . :lol: . I'm assuming that you also purchased a Tele Modern Player. The Luthier that set up the neck on mine mentioned that the only difference between medium jumbo and a jumbo frets is in the width, but I'm sure you already know that. Whatever the controversy, I'm quite happy in the way it plays. Perhaps I should hold off in becoming an accomplished player so to avoid being ticked off with the guitar. I'll at least wait until I can afford another. :D

Cheers


To be honest, I have no idea what defines "jumbo", "medium jumbo" or any other similar term in fret wire any more than I do in eggs, lol... My terminology used to include only "too big" and "normal" frets, but this Tele has added "damn near non-existent" to the jargon. ;)

Not saying I don't like them, but it is definitely something I'll need to get used to as a predominantly PRS/Gibson style player. I've had a few Strats and Teles over the years, but sold them all pretty quickly. So far, this seems like the first one I may actually bond with. And it's Chinese, who woulda thought? ;)


It reminds me years back when we used to call things from Japan - "Jap-anese crap". We sure don't say that today. The same thing, I believe, applies to things made in China. Nowadays, especially when you have companies like Fender and Gibson (in this case Epiphone) setting up factories in China and with all the training and QC, things have greatly improved. Eventually they started to produce a fine product, and I personally think they do. After all, Fender and Gibson (Epiphone) have their name and reputation to be concerned about. Whether the instruments are made in America, Japan, Mexico, China or Timbukto, people are people and they can be trained to do the job. Granted, there are companies in China that make knock off guitars with Gibson labels etc, and companies here are selling them as the genuine article. There's no QC within these companies as we know of, so they mass produce this junk, and many here have been duped into buying one of these guitars thinking they are getting a great deal on a real Gibson. This and other stories like this is what gives Chinese products a bad rap. Generally speaking, Chinese craftsmanship is exemplary, especially when you look at what they have produced over the centuries in the art world. I have no problem whatsoever with products made in China. Take your iPhone and iPads for examples. No need to say more. Let me relate a true story that happened to me in 2006:

Yes, I am picking up the guitar now to play, but back in 2006 I purchased a 60th year anniversary addition Telecaster for investment purposes. I ended up selling it a few years later because of financial problems. Didn't most of us in this country go through similar issues because of the economy. I hated to sell it, but I had no choice. Here's the sad part about the guitar. When I got home I noticed that there were some flaws with the fit and finish, so I had it replaced with another. I didn't notice it at the time of purchase. I was so excited about getting it that I didn't go over it as thorough as I should. Why should I, it was an American made Tele. This time the neck pickup was poorly installed. GC had one of the tallest hogs in the trough from Fender contact me. He arranged for one sent to me direct from the factory. Same issues. I arranged to meet him as he wanted to see for himself what I was talking about. After seeing it he was really pissed off - not at me, but at the factory from where it came from. Oh, I forgot to mention, it was out of Corona, California. Well he finally managed to get one for me with no issues, and as a nice gesture on his part gave me a number of nice gifts. He had two sent to him from the factory and gave me the choice of either one. Now is this what most people would expect from factories in Asia perhaps, and definitely not in the US. Obviously things can happen, but not to where I had to go throw three gits to get the right one. By the way, this guy was head of sales from Fender's head office in Scottsdale, AZ. We had a nice chat telling me about the new factory in Mexico and sadly mentioning that the pride in workmanship in this country is going down hill. Anyway, that be my experience with what should be a superior made in America Telecaster. So I don't bat eyes anymore whenever I see a label - Made in China.

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:01 am
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It does come down to the people actually working on the guitars, regardless of where they live or what language they speak. That's why I tend to prefer PRS guitars, I've been to their factory and met a number of their employees, and everyone at that company from the lowly sanders to the guys who handle product development and run the custom program, every last person I met seemed genuinely enthusiastic about the company and the instruments they build, and I definitely feel that comes through into the finished product. Not saying that other companies don't have similar employees, but I've seen it firsthand at PRS, and I've never seen or heard of a lemon coming out of their factory. I've seen my fair share of less than great Gibsons and Fenders, USA built or otherwise... and I've seen tremendously impressive examples of each as well. Personally, I think it really does all come down to the different hands that touch the instrument as it moves through the production line.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:39 am
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MacGyvercaster wrote:
It does come down to the people actually working on the guitars, regardless of where they live or what language they speak. That's why I tend to prefer PRS guitars, I've been to their factory and met a number of their employees, and everyone at that company from the lowly sanders to the guys who handle product development and run the custom program, every last person I met seemed genuinely enthusiastic about the company and the instruments they build, and I definitely feel that comes through into the finished product. Not saying that other companies don't have similar employees, but I've seen it firsthand at PRS, and I've never seen or heard of a lemon coming out of their factory. I've seen my fair share of less than great Gibsons and Fenders, USA built or otherwise... and I've seen tremendously impressive examples of each as well. Personally, I think it really does all come down to the different hands that touch the instrument as it moves through the production line.


Absolutely. I remember the years when manufacturing was big in this country. There was a lot pride in workmanship/craftsmanship, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist today, as per the example you mention. I've heard a great deal of positive things regarding PRS guitars, and how well made their product is. So why PRS, and why others, at times, don't match up so to speak? Many factors I would think. Pride in workmanship can come in various ways - personal, and collectively. I know from my past working in the design of printed circuit boards. I had pride in my work, and more so when I worked for companies that showed it's workers the recognition that they deserved and, might I add, craved for. All of us who want to do a good job also want to be praised/recognized for the good job that we do. Its human nature. When one is treated well, your desire is to perform at your best, and when you factor that with all the workers collectively, a good product will come down the line. I, for one, don't know what goes on behind the walls at Gibson and Fender. All I know is that back in 2006, I was the recipient of a product with below par workmanship. Was it due to an individual or was it collectively? I don't know. Was it management, poor equipment, poor materials? I have no idea. But I do think, in general terms that is, that work habits in this country have diminished a great deal over time. Of that, one can't deny.

Cheers

Edit: I have spent a great deal of time in Asian countries. As a matter of fact I'm married to a wonderful lady from the Philippines. They call themselves Filpinas (woman) - Filipinos (man). One thing I have noticed while visiting the Philippines and others, is the attitude that Asians in general have towards education and work ethics. All, of which, must have a reflection along the way in productivity. I look at my $399 made in China Telecaster, and I have to say that the results must have a lot to do from what I mention.

Back to the sales manager's remarks from Fender that I spoke of earlier. When Fender decided to build a modern plant in Mexico, the people were so excited and when hired to work in that factory, they were so appreciative and keen on doing the very best job they could. To them it was an opportunity of a lifetime, something, of which, we here often take for granted. If one has the chance to visit some of these countries, one might understand what I'm saying. For those people getting an opportunity like that is liken to winning a lottery, which for them takes them out of poverty and gives them human dignity. If any of us where in their shoes, we too would have the same attitude towards our work, working very hard to do the very best job we can. But, for the most part, many Americans do try to do a good job. So all is not lost. :D


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:53 pm
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F-Stop wrote:
It reminds me years back when we used to call things from Japan - "Jap-anese crap". We sure don't say that today. The same thing, I believe, applies to things made in China. Nowadays, especially when you have companies like Fender and Gibson (in this case Epiphone) setting up factories in China and with all the training and QC, things have greatly improved.

Setting up factories? I thought that Fender outsourced their guitar production in Asia, and that Epiphones were made at the Cort factory?


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:27 am
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arth1 wrote:
F-Stop wrote:
It reminds me years back when we used to call things from Japan - "Jap-anese crap". We sure don't say that today. The same thing, I believe, applies to things made in China. Nowadays, especially when you have companies like Fender and Gibson (in this case Epiphone) setting up factories in China and with all the training and QC, things have greatly improved.

Setting up factories? I thought that Fender outsourced their guitar production in Asia, and that Epiphones were made at the Cort factory?


Yes that's true, but they have to set up production in whatever factory/building is being used. I know that Epiphone sent a management team, technicians, quality control people, etc to set things up, train and monitor production. I remember watching a short video regarding Epiphone production in China, showing an American team setting up and running the plant. You can't leave these people to their own resources. Perhaps they stayed long enough to make sure production and QC was properly met. The same, I'm sure, holds true with Fender. It would be folly on the companies part to pick out a factory that makes instruments and just place orders. In regards to Fender's manufacturing plant in Mexico, they had to send a team to get things rolling. Special equipment needs to be ordered and people trained to do the job and follow through with Fender's specifications.

I did a google search on Cort guitars, and I came up with some interesting info. Apparently they are made in South Korea. Here are a number of links to that effect. I didn't go through them all, but there seems to be some issues.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... rs+made%3F

Cheers

Edit: This is turning out to be an education for me. Here's a link about Cort guitars in S. Korea 2011. You might say that the workers are not too happy. People were fired for trying to form a union in hopes to change the sweatshop like conditions. I recall a similar situation regarding Apple.

http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/ ... r-support/

I've been out of the guitar world for quite sometime until just recently. The last time I played, guitars were made here in the US. I guess I'm dating myself. With corporations it's always about the bottom line.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster frets
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:08 pm
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jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
Your reference to Yngwie Malmsteen and scalloped fretboards is not relevant to this discussion, unless you wish to qualify your statement by acknowledging that the form of the speed metal, tapping style of playing that you are describing, may be an exception to the general rule that Jumbo frets are generally an impediment to faster and easier guitar playing if you are not a beginning player, or a player with very limited skills.

:roll:
Just one post before you stated you had this opinion, now you're trying to present it as a fact..?

Anyway, you're totally wrong. Relaxing the grip is one key to faster & easier playing in every music style, from flamenco to fusion - and with jumbos you "have to" lighten the grip, otherwise you play out of tune - or feel the speed bumps when gliding up&down on the neck... And: even pro players develop cramps, not only beginners.
Of course, there is the "SRV school style force playing", which chooses a different approach - but even on that scene: GTRPlayer Mag Jumbo frets article

Don't get me wrong; jumbos are not for everybody.
But categorically dooming them, based on your own one time experience, is just bull. They do have their purpose and plus sides. Think miniscallops.


SRV was who came to my mind too. Liked jumbo frets but definitely not a beginner and definitely not a soft touch.

BTW - #1 Mick on the truss rod suggestion rather than taking it back for another try at adjusting the action. Good old Guitar Center - most of their "techs" are barely qualified to change strings. My local store has gotten better the last few years. Thanks to Karaoke(and DJ's) I don't think there is a club in town that has a 5 night a week house band anymore. Some still have live music on Friday and Saturday nights but they are getting hard to find too. So most employees at our local store are former gigging players with nowhere to play. Or they still play on Friday and Saturday nights but work at GC for extra money.

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