It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:44 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:02 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
MickJagger wrote:
I suggested using commercially available bridges because some folks are apparently using "Monkey Metal" bridges, and I can't guarantee that Monkey Metal bridges do not alter the sound of the strings in some manner.

In case the term is unfamiliar to you, "monkey metal" refers to lesser quality alloys - often found in cheaper guitar hardware.
So, suddenly your original written-into-stone thesis, "bridge saddles and the wood of an electric guitar have no sonic effect on amplified sound that can be distinguished by the human ear", is turning to something more vague..?
Like, "sometimes they do"?


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:12 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 1089
Location: Rossendale UK
I went to a Fret King clinic a few years ago, and Jerry Donahue was there demonstrating his signature guitar.
He was asked about the shared saddle thing, and his response was something along the lines of there being vibrational interaction between the pairs of strings on each saddle, and he felt this was an important part of the Telecaster sound.

His signature guitar does sport a Wilkinson bridge, so has chamfered saddles to aid more accurate intonation adjustment.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:44 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4241
IMHO, there sure ain't no "one and only right answer".
Take a look at Fender's artist models: Shiflett, Burton, Root, J5 and Kotzen, CS/Haggard (!) and CS/J5 have the modern bridge, CS Gatton and Collins the vintage one - and Adkins comes with Adjusto-Matic™...

BTW, nobody seems to use the ashtray with the vintage bridge - although it's part of Leo's original design :wink:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:54 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 1089
Location: Rossendale UK
jmattis wrote:
IMHO, there sure ain't no "one and only right answer".
Take a look at Fender's artist models: Shiflett, Burton, Root, J5 and Kotzen, CS/Haggard (!) and CS/J5 have the modern bridge, CS Gatton and Collins the vintage one - and Adkins comes with Adjusto-Matic™...

BTW, nobody seems to use the ashtray with the vintage bridge - although it's part of Leo's original design :wink:


I agree, there ain't no right and wrong.

I remember folks using the Tele bridge cover as an ashtray, and I know Fender used to supply both Teles and Strats with the covers up until the takeover in the '80s
I've never seen anyone using a bridge cover as a bridge cover :)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:47 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:45 pm
Posts: 2
vintage stuff

_________________
Fender American Stratocaster Highway One Wine Red RoseWood 2007 Left Handed

Fender American Telecaster Standard Vintage White Maple 1997 Left Handed


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:40 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:35 pm
Posts: 807
Location: Just East of Event Horizon
jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
I suggested using commercially available bridges because some folks are apparently using "Monkey Metal" bridges, and I can't guarantee that Monkey Metal bridges do not alter the sound of the strings in some manner.

In case the term is unfamiliar to you, "monkey metal" refers to lesser quality alloys - often found in cheaper guitar hardware.
So, suddenly your original written-into-stone thesis, "bridge saddles and the wood of an electric guitar have no sonic effect on amplified sound that can be distinguished by the human ear", is turning to something more vague..?
Like, "sometimes they do"?

I was unfamiliar with the term, "Monkey Metal," but by the time that I wrote the above tongue-in-cheek posting, I understood it to be "pot metal," a term that I am very familiar with, which is basically (junk) cast alloys with low-melting points, that normally includes a lot of zink and sometimes have small bubbles of air imbedded in the metal.
While a "monkey metal bridge" may indeed work without audible distinction, some pot metal is very soft metal, depending on the alloy.
If a pot metal bridge acted like a hard boiled egg under a wire egg slicer, and failed to create a precise bridge point on the string, it could presumably affect the amplified sound.
So there is really no vagueness in my position.
I would not recommend comparison testing bridges, with a "Monkey Metal" bridge....
I would stick to commercially available bridges for any comparison. :wink:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:00 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:35 pm
Posts: 807
Location: Just East of Event Horizon
stratmangler wrote:
I went to a Fret King clinic a few years ago, and Jerry Donahue was there demonstrating his signature guitar.
He was asked about the shared saddle thing, and his response was something along the lines of there being vibrational interaction between the pairs of strings on each saddle, and he felt this was an important part of the Telecaster sound.

His signature guitar does sport a Wilkinson bridge, so has chamfered saddles to aid more accurate intonation adjustment.

That would seem to be about the only plausible theory of vibrational string interaction, but I would expect the vibrational interaction to be so slight, as to be sonically indistinguishable regarding amplified sound.
This is because the transfer of vibration would generally be cancelled out by the other string's vibration.

Both strings are "delivering energy" not "receiving energy," unless one string was not vibrating when the other string was struck.
Even then, the amount of vibration that could actually be transferred to the dead string would seemingly be negligible for producing an audible amplified sound that could be distinguished by the human ear.
I know Pete Townsend couldn't hear it!! :lol:
But then again, he never had any dead strings!!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:39 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: ˚ɷ˚
MickJagger wrote:
That would seem to be about the only plausible theory of vibrational string interaction, but I would expect the vibrational interaction to be so slight, as to be sonically indistinguishable regarding amplified sound.
This is because the transfer of vibration would generally be cancelled out by the other string's vibration.


Huh? That would only be true if the second string vibrated at the exact same frequencies and amplitudes but opposite direction to the vibrations it received from the first string. That's never the case.

MickJagger wrote:
Both strings are "delivering energy" not "receiving energy," unless one string was not vibrating when the other string was struck.


Whether a string is already vibrating or not has no relevance for whether it can accept additional vibrations. A spring reverb works precisely because you can add vibrations on top of vibrations. This is just bad physics understanding.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:40 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:46 pm
Posts: 15
MickJagger wrote:
jmattis wrote:
MJ, If you're into discovering logical fallacies, please explain this:
MickJagger wrote:
The only thing that affects amplified sound is the vibration frequency and amplitude (how hard you hit the strings) of the strings passing through the unique magnetic field of each pickup.

MickJagger wrote:
if you tested quality, commercially available bridges on a guitar


If the bridges don't affect the sound, why use "quality, commercially available" ones, for testing or at all?

(Remember, I suggested you save yourself the stress... :mrgreen: )

I suggested using commercially available bridges because some folks are apparently using "Monkey Metal" bridges, and I can't guarantee that Monkey Metal bridges do not alter the sound of the strings in some manner.

Also, if someone has a bridge made from alkali metals such as lithium (Li), sodium (Na), potassium (K), rubidium (Rb), caesium (Cs), and francium (Fr), and the bridge melts, explodes or bursts into flames from the sweat from your hands, I obviously cannot guarantee that this will not affect the sound of an electric guitar: :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen:



Wow, so I guess I should throw away these Lithium saddles, and this Sodium bridge I've been working on. :lol:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:16 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
I've said this before but I guess it bears repeating. From a strictly logical point of view it's nonsensical to take the position that only the pickups affect tone. There is an extremely simple way to disprove that notion. Install a PAF bucker in your Strat or Tele and see if it sounds exactly like a Les Paul. There's no need to waste time or money on that experiment unless you are particularly stubborn. Take the word of experienced players. It doesn't sound like a Les Paul. It sounds like a bucker in a Strat or Tele. You are now left with the choice of either admitting the guitar itself plays a role in tone or play the idiot and persist in asserting the pups alone determine tone. Once common sense finally gets through and you're forced to admit there's more going on than just pickups you are then faced with the prospect of determining exactly which parts of the guitar are involved in tone. After that, wherever you draw the line that's where the battle rages. I mean how can you justify saying one part of the guitar is involved but another part isn't?

Answer? You can't.
Nuf sed.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:35 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:35 pm
Posts: 807
Location: Just East of Event Horizon
BMW-KTM wrote:
....From a strictly logical point of view it's nonsensical to take the position that only the pickups affect tone. There is an extremely simple way to disprove that notion. Install a PAF bucker in your Strat or Tele and see if it sounds exactly like a Les Paul. There's no need to waste time or money on that experiment unless you are particularly stubborn. Take the word of experienced players. It doesn't sound like a Les Paul. It sounds like a bucker in a Strat or Tele. You are now left with the choice of either admitting the guitar itself plays a role in tone or play the idiot and persist in asserting the pups alone determine tone. Once common sense finally gets through and you're forced to admit there's more going on than just pickups you are then faced with the prospect of determining exactly which parts of the guitar are involved in tone. After that, wherever you draw the line that's where the battle rages. I mean how can you justify saying one part of the guitar is involved but another part isn't?

Answer? You can't.
Nuf sed.

Answer:
- If the scale length is the same;
- And the same pup is identically positioned, relative to the nut and bridge on the two guitars;
- And the same pup is the same distance from the strings;
- And the action and intonation set-up of the neck is the same on both guitars
- And the strings are the same size and both guitars are tuned identically;
- And the two guitars are strummed in the same manner and intensity:
Then the amplified sound should be identical, when both guitars are played through the same amp at identical settings, or otherwise, any difference should be beyond the ability of the human ear to perceive any difference.

A difference in the finger board wood, body shape and wood type, and the type of bridge, should have no affect on the amplified sound of the same pup, through the same amp, at identical settings, if all of the factors listed above are the same.
You can justify saying that NO other part of the guitar is involved in the amplified sound because there is not a reasonable scientific explanation that I am aware of that would adequately describe the sonic phenomenon that you apparently believe in, involving electric, non acoustic, guitars, which you admit in your post above, is unknown, regarding your description of the "battle that rages."

You are now left with the choice of either admitting the guitar itself plays NO logical role in tone, or play the idiot and persist in asserting the some unknown factor(s) such as the tone of the wood, the bridge, the tone of the fingerboard wood, or the shape of the body, affect the tone of an electric guitar. Once common sense finally gets through, and you're forced to admit there's nothing more going on than just the pickups and the strings vibration, you will understand that there's no need to waste time or money experimenting, unless you are particularly stubborn.

Some people believe that there is a Heaven and Hell.
Others do not.
I fall into the latter group.

Answer? You can't.
Nuf sed.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:45 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
Several years ago I met a guy who put a Dragon 2 in his Strat. Scale length is almost identical. It didn't sound like a PRS.

You're grasping at straws. I won't respond to you again. I won't waste my time if your mind is made up.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:09 am
Offline
Roadie
Roadie

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:00 am
Posts: 261
Pickups can't pick up what isn't there. The end.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:11 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:43 am
Posts: 69
MickJagger wrote:
jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
I must again rain on the parade of logical fallacies.


The "nothing else matters" quest is doomed to fail. :wink:

The "nothing else matters" quest is doomed to fail...
....For those who wish to live in the land of make believe, where magnetic pickups can pick up wood vibration coming from the strings or some exoteric sound from bridge saddles.

If you get a really strong magnifying glass, and you look real close, right between the D and G stings, right at the base of the bridge saddles, you might be able to see a tiny emerald castle.
This is where the Wizard of Bridges lives!! :D
Long live logical fallacies!!



I'll leave this here....

_________________
Current toys
'13 Gibson Les Paul Studio in Alpine White |94 Stratocaster - MIM Sambora in CAR | 60th Anniversary Classic Player Stratocaster | Vox AD30VT | Blackstar Series 1 45 2x12 Combo

Effects
Jim Dunlop Crybaby | TC Electronics Hall of Fame


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 6 saddles vs 3 saddles
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:27 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 1019
Location: State of Confusion
Then why does a semi-hollow body, or full hollow body sound different (all else being equal) than a solid body?

_________________
The quintessential sound of 60/70's R&R:
Fender Tube Amps
Gibson Guitars


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dickey clapton and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: