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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:05 pm
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Impulse7 wrote:
2013 am std teles have 6 saddle bridges, so if the distance from the nut to the 12th fret and the 12th fret to around the middle of the bridge is the same, you shouldn't have a problem with intonation. hell it could be a couple of mm off and still be able to be setup correctly.

The correct way to measure the scale is to measure 25.5" from the base of the nut to the contact point of the high E string at the bridge saddle.
The intonation for the high E string at the 12th fret should be very close at that point, with only slight adjustment needed.

The intonation for the rest of the strings is set using the normal pattern for bridge saddles, relative to the high E string bridge saddle.

The B and G saddles are staggered back toward the base of the bridge, with the B saddle about 1mm back from the high E saddle and the G saddle about 1mm back from the B saddle.

The D saddle is extended toward the nut almost even with the high E saddle, but not quite, with the A and low E saddles staggered back toward the base of the bridge from the G saddle, with the A saddle approx 1mm back from the G saddle and the low E saddle approximately 1mm back from the A saddle.

These placements of the bridge saddles will get the intonation close.
The intonation for each string is then adjusted at the 12th fret using a chromatic tuner until the notes are equal to the open string note.


Last edited by MickJagger on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:17 am
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+1 MickJagger.

All these problems can be observed and measured by a competent luthier. If luthier can fix that he warn the customer.

  By cons, if the luthier does not see these problems is that there is no problem or is incompetent.


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:27 am
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MickJagger wrote:
The G saddle is extended toward the nut almost even with the high E saddle, but not quite

For electric guitars, this is archaic and largely incorrect advice.
It is true for a wound G string only. For a plain unwound G string like on most modern guitars, it's the opposite, with the saddle pulled even further back from the pickups than any other string.

MickJagger wrote:
The intonation for each string is then adjusted at the 12th fret using a chromatic tuner until the notes are equal to the open string note.

If using a chromatic tuner, there is no reason to use the 12th fret. The 12th fret was chosen back in the days before chromatic tuners, because you can adjust to it by ear.

To minimize the intonation error if using a chromatic tuner, i.e. one that can tune against any note, adjust intonation for the fret that's closest to the bridge, whether it's 21st, 22nd or 24th. That causes the error to diminish as you go up the fretboard, with the 12th being even better in tune than if you tune directly against it.

And if you're a die hard skeptical who was told 12th fret by a reputable source, and don't want to take the advice of some guy over the internet, try it anyhow, and then double-check against the 12th fret. What's the harm if you double-check?
You'll find that it will be in tune on the 12th fret too.

And if you think it doesn't matter, try the opposite. De-intone the guitar randomly, then adjust it against the 12th fret. Now double-check it against the highest fret. Chances are that at least one or two strings will be slightly off there, because any small error on the 12th will magnify with the frequency increase as you walk towards the bridge. An error too small to be heard at the 12th can be big enough to notice on the 21st.
So in the first case, you have a guitar that's well intoned against both the 12th and top fret. And in the second one that's well intoned against the 12th fret, but slightly off for high notes.


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:08 am
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arth1 wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
The G saddle is extended toward the nut almost even with the high E saddle, but not quite

For electric guitars, this is archaic and largely incorrect advice.
It is true for a wound G string only. For a plain unwound G string like on most modern guitars, it's the opposite, with the saddle pulled even further back from the pickups than any other string.

Thank you arth1 for pointing out my "dyslexic" mistake in my above post where I transposed the G and D string designations, which is now corrected.
Perhaps you will agree with the described approach to initially setting up a new six saddle bridge or a bridge that is way out of adjustment, so that you get the intonation close, before actually adjusting the intonation, which was my intention.
arth1 wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
The intonation for each string is then adjusted at the 12th fret using a chromatic tuner until the notes are equal to the open string note.

If using a chromatic tuner, there is no reason to use the 12th fret. The 12th fret was chosen back in the days before chromatic tuners, because you can adjust to it by ear.

To minimize the intonation error if using a chromatic tuner, i.e. one that can tune against any note, adjust intonation for the fret that's closest to the bridge, whether it's 21st, 22nd or 24th. That causes the error to diminish as you go up the fretboard, with the 12th being even better in tune than if you tune directly against it.

And if you're a die hard skeptical who was told 12th fret by a reputable source, and don't want to take the advice of some guy over the internet....

We have been through this before, arth1.

You should really stop putting forward this false information, unless you are able to point to a legitimate, credible guitar source that supports your theory, that "to minimize the intonation error, when using a chromatic tuner, that you should adjust intonation at the fret that's closest to the bridge."

You are correct that the intonation adjustment will vary slightly as you move the adjustment point from the twelfth fret, closer to the bridge.
But what this will do is compromise tuning at the top of the neck, which will magnify the error due to the longer distance between frets.

But I'll tell you arth1; I'll "take the advice of some guy over the internet," if you can show me one solid, credible, and authoritative guitar source (not some other "guy" on the internet) that supports your theory that intonation should be adjusted at the fret closest to the bridge.

If you can't provide at least one authoritative guitar source to support this intonation adjustment theory that you promote, then your theory is just a figment of your active imagination, which is fundamentally incorrect, and full of sheet.


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:27 am
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Argumentum ad authoritatem I can understand. Never accept, but understand.
Refusal to even consider despite how easy it is for anyone tempted to try it to double-check against the 12th fret, that I don't understand.

Can you show me just one reason for picking the 12th fret when using a chromatic tuner instead of your ears? One is all I ask for.

FWIW, I have tried it. Probably around a dozen times.
When intoning against the 12th fret, there often were small but measurable intonation errors on the top fret afterwards.
When intoning against the top fret, there has never been any intonation error on the 12th fret afterwards.

If anyone tries it and gets worse results when adjusting against the top fret, I would like to know. Because this is easily testable and easily falsifiable.

Until then, I will point out that the emperor has no clothes when applying a pre-tuner rule for adjusting intonation to when using a tuner. It's a great rule for when adjusting by ear.
It's not the best - others have pointed out that you can check e.g. the 5th fret against the 17th fret or 9th fret against the 21st and get better results. But checking the 12th fret is easy, which means it may actually get done, which makes it a great rule for adjusting intonation by ear.

As for your appeal to other sources, well, a quick Google gave me this:
http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/intonation.htm

Edit: Peterson (the strobo tuner guys) recommend checking against the 5th and 17th fret -- 17th is about the highest you can put a capo on most guitars.


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:18 pm
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UPDATE!!!

As my first repair guy said, the guitar needed a "premature fret dressing." The 3rd guy theorized that the fretboard may have shrunk a bit. So, he ground and polished the frets a bit and it is working great. The test came when I depressed the low E at the 3rd fret. Last week, it went sharp. Now I press as hard as I can and any pitch increase is barely noticeable. After a few bangs on it, I could tell it was a hair sharp. My regular playing made the open G chord sound just right. The intonation was correct at all frets from the beginning (thanks to the 1st guy). The third guy said that maybe going to 10s instead of 9s because he thought I had a heavy attack. I may do that, but the guitar is playable now.


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:25 pm
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cwgatti,
thanks for giving us the update and glad it's playing for you now.
P.S. I did see your email to our Consumer Relations Dept but asked them to hold off while we waited for your update. So thanks again, and again, glad you got it to where you're feeling its playable.

All the best,
rob

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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:32 pm
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Thanks Rob. All seems good now. Evidently, this can happen to new guitars, and it is really no one's fault. For the record, Hello Music never even responded to me. Follow me over to the Stratocaster board where I am going to complain about Fender not offering the Jeff Beck Strats in any other color than Surf Green and Olympic White!!!

You guys gotta bring back the purple!!!!!


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:35 pm
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cwgatti wrote:
Thanks Rob. All seems good now. Evidently, this can happen to new guitars, and it is really no one's fault. For the record, Hello Music never even responded to me. Follow me over to the Stratocaster board where I am going to complain about Fender not offering the Jeff Beck Strats in any other color than Surf Green and Olympic White!!!

You guys gotta bring back the purple!!!!!



lol I like the purple ones myself! ;O)

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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:05 am
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cwgatti wrote:
UPDATE!!!

As my first repair guy said, the guitar needed a "premature fret dressing." The 3rd guy theorized that the fretboard may have shrunk a bit. So, he ground and polished the frets a bit and it is working great. The test came when I depressed the low E at the 3rd fret. Last week, it went sharp. Now I press as hard as I can and any pitch increase is barely noticeable. After a few bangs on it, I could tell it was a hair sharp. My regular playing made the open G chord sound just right. The intonation was correct at all frets from the beginning (thanks to the 1st guy). The third guy said that maybe going to 10s instead of 9s because he thought I had a heavy attack. I may do that, but the guitar is playable now.



Good news , now enjoy one of the fabulous guitar ever made .


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:07 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Argumentum ad authoritatem I can understand. Never accept, but understand.
Refusal to even consider despite how easy it is for anyone tempted to try it to double-check against the 12th fret, that I don't understand.

I congratulate you on finding an actual guitar merchant who advocates last fret intonation adjustment.
I also congratulate you on accepting that you must "double-check at the 12th fret," as opposed to setting the intonation at the fret closest to the bridge ONLY, and having a slight variance at the 12th fret, as all of your previous postings have advocated.

arth1 wrote:
Can you show me just one reason for picking the 12th fret when using a chromatic tuner instead of your ears? One is all I ask for.

The obvious reason for picking the 12th fret is that this is the mid-point of the fret board from the nut to the bridge, which should evenly distribute any slight variance of intonation that may exist at the 1st or 2nd fret, with any slight variance of intonation that may exist at the 21st, 22nd or 24th frets.
You would not want to check intonation at the 2nd fret only.
Nor should you want to check intonation at the 22nd fret only.
But the bottom line is that you should not build in any variance of intonation at the 12th fret when adjusting a six saddle bridge, which is what you have consistently argued for doing.
arth1 wrote:
FWIW, I have tried it. Probably around a dozen times.
When intoning against the 12th fret, there often were small but measurable intonation errors on the top fret afterwards.
When intoning against the top fret, there has never been any intonation error on the 12th fret afterwards.

That's cute, arth1!!
The first proposition discusses intonation variances at the "top fret afterwards."
The second proposition discusses intonation variances at the "12th fret afterwards."
What is it that you are comparing..., apples and oranges?
To the extent that you are claiming that intonation set at the last fret produces less tuning variance at the top of the neck than when intonation is set at the 12th fret..., all I have to say to that is "bullsheet."

arth1 wrote:
Until then, I will point out that the emperor has no clothes when applying a pre-tuner rule for adjusting intonation to when using a tuner. It's a great rule for when adjusting by ear.

This is just more of your silly nonsense, which argues that intonation set at the 12th fret is "obsolete" due to the invention of chromatic tuners.
You should have been disabused of such nonsense by the web page that you cited, which informed you to "double-check at the 12th fret."
The bottom line is, no matter where you check intonation on the neck, you should not build in any variance to the intonation setting as checked at the 12th fret when adjusting a six saddle bridge.


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:17 pm
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plonk


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Post subject: Re: Major problems with my Telecaster
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:29 pm
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arth1 wrote:
plonk

Is that the sound of the marbles rolling around in your head???
Even that's not in tune!!!
LOL!!


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