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Post subject: Re: Low E String Intonation
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:00 am
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cwgatti wrote:
The intonation is pretty close. The sharp G note is leading me to believe that there may be some fret work required. On a new American Fender that is a troubling thought. I will keep you updated.


Fretwork does not affect intonation. If you have properly intonated the guitar and you are having problems with a note going sharp when you fret it, the problem is most likely with a poorly cut nut.

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Post subject: Re: Low E String Intonation
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:35 am
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MickJagger wrote:
arth1 wrote:
What you seem to not realize is that there is no such thing as absolute precision when measurements are involved, and that errors in measurement grow with scale. The longer the distance you scale to, the larger the error grows.

It's simple mathematics....

That is simple nonsense!!
You have no idea about what you are talking about.


So we resort to ad hominem. *Sigh*

MickJagger wrote:
If the intonation note is correct at the 12 fret with the open string tuning using a chromatic tuner, it has to be correct at the 22nd fret unless you have a defective neck.


You seem to make the error of assumption that "correct" is an exact value. The defect isn't in the neck, but in having to measure a quantity. That will always be imprecise.

MickJagger wrote:
There is no growth in error measurements as you progress down the scale unless the the note and intonation are not correct at the 12th fret. It's simple mathematics.


It's simple mathematics, yes. But that "unless" of yours is a given.

Any measured value will have a margin of error. Fact.
Every upscaling of a measured value will upscale this error too. Fact.

You seem to deny this, clinging on to what you've been taught.

Go through above example explanation again, and tell where, exactly, there's a mistake.
If you have a small intonation error on the 12th fret, that will magnify into a larger error on the 22nd fret. Is this wrong? Yes/No?
If you have a small intonation error on the 22nd fret, that will magnify into a smaller error on the 12nd fret. Is this wrong? Yes/No?


There is no such thing as "perfect" for something you measure. You cannot adjust it perfectly on the 12th fret any more than you can adjust it perfectly on the 22nd or the 2nd fret. You can adjust it to within acceptable tolerances, but there will always be inaccuracies. Which grow with scale. Measuring on the fret nearest to the bridge will cause this error to never be magnified up by scale, always down.

If you don't believe this, you might as well do your intonation adjustments on the second fret. No need to go all the way up to the twelfth, when there is no error that scales, right?

Since you brought up fallacies, the only ones I see here are:
- Argumentum ad auctoritatem
- Argumentum ad antiquitam
- (A +- 0) * B = AB, thus (A +- X) * B = AB +- Y, Y <= X


Adjusting on the 12th surely can be accurate enough, which I've pointed out in every post. But if using a chromatic tuner instead of your ear, measuring on the top fret will always have less margin of error. I've shown why - feel free to disbelieve it. That's your call. But stop the personal attacks, please?


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Post subject: Re: Low E String Intonation
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:13 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
I suggest that MickJagger and arth1 spend some time researching "equal temperament" since neither one of them has any real understanding about guitar tuning.


Intonation adjustment has little to do with temperament. I actually play multiple instruments in different intonations. I've made my own Ressikan flute with pythagorean intonation, and have my synth set to quarter-comma meantone right now. Orlando de Lassus is one of my favourite composers. So I have a fairly good grasp on the concept. I can by heart say how many cents you need to raise or lower the pitch for each note in a chord to go from equal temperament to just intonation or vice versa. Can you?

I can't speak for MickJagger, of course.

Standard guitars uses equal temperament. And with equal temperament, the intonation can be done on any fret; it's only the accuracy that differs depending on where you measure.

Anyhow, back to the original poster. Yes, I second the opinion that you should check your nut. If the E string is too fat for the nut, you will have issues. And most Fenders are made for .009s, and won't do well with fat E strings (thicker than .052" or so) without adjusting the nut to accommodate fatter strings.
And you should probably also get used to touching the strings lighter, or get a stiffer string, since the issue seems to be when you depress the string.
Hex core strings are generally stiffer. The Ernie Ball cobalt ones are also fairly stiff, and may reduce the effect. Strings are cheap, so give changing them out to thinner and stiffer strings a try!

Yes, Fender Telecasters tend to have taller frets than many other guitars. My PRS, for example, has much lower frets. But that also means it's easier to do vibrato on a Fender (without doing vibrato mandolin style like e.g. Mike Oldfield does).


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Post subject: Re: Low E String Intonation
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:40 am
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Someone on this forum posted a while back that they found it helped when tuning to tune the low E,A,D slightly to the flat side and the G,B,E slightly to the sharp side. I have since been doing this and it seems to make the chords sound better as well as the sound of the individual string when plucked. I don't know the mechanics of this, but it sure sounds better to the ear.

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Post subject: Re: Low E String Intonation
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:48 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
I suggest that MickJagger and arth1 spend some time researching "equal temperament" since neither one of them has any real understanding about guitar tuning. If what either one of them claim were true, there would be no need for guitars like this (see above)...

...I muddle along just fine using my Boss TU-3 tuner. :D

Bluesky, I suggest to you, that researching "equal temperament" and guitars such as pictured above is like researching how many angles can dance on the head of a pin, and that using your Boss TU-3 tuner at the 12th fret will set your intonation just fine, as has apparently been your experience.

While promoting these odd, wavy frets, which no other manufacturer uses, or would ever use, truetemperment.com admits to the following:

"Standard equal tempered fret spacing is calculated from one single piece of information about the instrument - the scale length (the theoretical speaking length of the open strings). A divisor constant is used to determine the locations of the frets. The scale length divided by the constant gives the position of the first fret. The remaining length after subtracting the first fret, divided by the same constant, gives the position of the second fret, and so on."

"The divisor used by all but a vanishingly small percentage of modern guitar builders is 17.817152, a figure arrived at by way of the logarithmic function "the 12th root of 2" (1.0594631). This results in precise mathematical fret spacing with the 12th fret at the exact centre of the calculated scale length. If the calculation is repeated for 24 frets, the distance from the 24th fret to the theoretical bridge saddle position will be exactly one-fourth of the calculated scale length. (The residual error is ridiculously small, less than one ten thousandth of an inch on popular guitar scales)." Emphasis added. This is approximately the diameter of a human hair, so at the 12th fret, the residual error would be at best, the thickness of two human hairs.

Truetemperament.com then claims: "But this mathematical model is a gross oversimplification." The site claims: "It ignores virtually every physical parameter which governs the behavior of vibrating strings, except one - length" (sic.).

This is precisely the argument that is presented in this thread. The standard mathematical model accounts for the length of the strings by measuring the intonation note at the twelth fret, compared with the open string. This measurement cannot vary at the 22nd fret if the intonation is set correctly at the 12th fret.

Anyone who has experience with checking notes at different frets should know, the variation in sharpness and flatness of notes is greater above the 12th fret than below, when intonation is properly set at the 12th fret. This is basically due to the larger spacing between frets near the top of the neck, where the issues of string mass and vibration as presented by Truetemper.com, are magnified. To set intonation based on the chromatic note at the 22 fret, such as arth1 suggests, would only make any intonation variation above the 12th fret, greater, not less. This is another reason why you would never want to use the note at the 22nd fret as an intonation guide.

Truetemperament.com argues that the mass and vibrations of the string must be considered, which is nice in "theory" but impractical in application. Admittedly, a guitar is not a piano. Truetemperament.com shows a host of Artists that supposedly use these frets, including Steve Vai and Dweezle Zappa, who are obviously paid for their supposed endorsement. The web site also shows a picture of a Steve Vai Ibanez guitar sporting these wacky frets that no one in their right mind would consider actually playing, not even Steve Vai or Dweezle Zappa.

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Last edited by MickJagger on Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Low E String Intonation
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:18 pm
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arth1 wrote:
...Adjusting on the 12th surely can be accurate enough, which I've pointed out in every post. But if using a chromatic tuner instead of your ear, measuring on the top fret will always have less margin of error. I've shown why - feel free to disbelieve it. That's your call. But stop the personal attacks, please?

My apology arth1, if I was over zealous in pointing out the fallacy of your theory. But I do not believe that this is just a matter of differing opinions, in which either one may have general validity. As you correctly noted in your original post, this is a question of mathematics.

As such, you would never want to measure intonation by the note at the 22nd fret, even though you may end up with an intonation above the 12th fret that is close enough for your ears.

We are in agreement that if the original poster can adquately adjust the intonation of his guitar, which was unclear from his first post as to whether he could, he should check the nut spacing.


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