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Post subject: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:04 pm
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I'm really looking for a sweet vintage sounding Fender amp for my Tele and I'm thinking the Vibrolux Reverb will give me the Roy Buchanan-ish tones I am looking for. I know it's not the same thing as the original, blah blah, but I don't have an arm and a leg I can get rid of. From my experience, the modern/reissue Fender amps sound great.

Anybody have any experience with this amp? Does it have enough headroom and sound dispersion to play outdoor gigs? Only thing I am unsure about is the 210 speaker configuration. I personally have never had any qualms with 10's but I do know I like the big open sound of 12's. I just don't have much experience with 10's is the thing. I have the 410 Fender Deville and that seems to sound just fine.


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:36 pm
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If you need more headroom in your Deville, try two (2) JAN Philips 5751 in place of your V1 and V2 12AX7 preamp tubes, leaving the phase inverter V3 as a high gain 12AX7 such as a Tung-Sol 12AX7. I assume that you could also try replacing V1 and possibly V2 in a Vibrolux Reverb if you needed more head room, but I can't guarantee the result.

I have a Blues Deluxe Reissue which is a Hot Rod style amp. After reading about this on line from someone whose opinion I respected, I put two (2) JAN Philips 5751 in place of my V1 and V2 12AX7 preamp tubes. It took a little time to adjust to the sound change, but I really like them, and the amp is easily overdriven with an overdrive pedal. My setting changes with these tubes changed the base setting from a 4 to 12, with mid range remaining scooped at 3 and Treble remaining the same at 10.

If headroom is the reason that you are considering a new amp, try the JAN Philips 5751's in V1 and V2 of your Deville. The 5751 is still a higher gain tube than 12AT7s. They just might get you that "sweet vintage sounding Fender amp" that you are looking for. You can get these at the Tube Depo. :idea:


Last edited by MickJagger on Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:22 am
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I'm looking at the Vibrolux Reverb for the sound. The Deville has all the headroom I need. I'm just curious if the Vibrolux has the headroom for outdoor shows. Since I prefer the sound of the Vibrolux over the Deville, I would want to be able to use it for those shows.

Since we're on that note though. I have been wanting to change the preamp tubes in the Deville since I've had the stock ones for a while. I am guessing there is a potential sound improvement from re-tubing it. I wouldn't mind a little bit of a brighter or a vintage sound out of it. What kind of tubes would aid with that?


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:07 pm
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Without getting into rare NOS power tubes, the SED SV6L6GC, "winged Cs" (=C=) are considered the best imported 6L6GC power tube.

In lower voltage amps like the Hot Rods (aprox. 435 plate voltage) the JAN-Philips 6L6WGB is a great tube. Another nice 25 watt tube would be Tung-Sol 5881. Some web sites, including Justin Holton's highly respected "The Unofficial Fender Hot Rod Deluxe Owner's Guide" (http://www.justinholton.com/hotrod/), do not recommend using 6L6WGB or 5881 tubes.

This is presumably due to the fact that the JAN-Philips 6L6WGB, which are NOS military grade tubes built to very high quality standards, and the Tung-Sol 5881, are only rated at 25 watts and 400 volts. 30 Watt tubes such as 6L6GC, 6L6WXT+, and 6L6WGC are rated for plate voltage up to 500 volts.

If your Deville is like my Deluxe, which I believe it is, (please check this) you will see a sticker on the inside of the cabinet which recommends that 5881 power tubes can be used. I have used JAN-Philips 6L6WGB power tubes in my Blues Deluxe Reissue, without any problems and I like them.

Of course, when changing power tubes, you need to order a matched set and they need to be biased. If you are not familiar with biasing your Deville amp, here is a great video from the Tubestore on how to bias a Hot Rod style amp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19IUadZJf-c

Below is a picture of the bias test point on a Hot Rod style amp which measures the bias of both tubes combined using a multimeter. I recommend carefully watching the video many times before biasing your amp. Please realize that there are LETHAL VOLTAGES inside your amp, and proper care must be taken if you choose to bias the amp yourself.

Fender recommends a bias point reading for both power tubes of 60mV. You can bias your amp safely from 60mV to 80mV depending on what you prefer, with 60mV providing more headroom, and 80mV providing an earlier breakup. 6L6GE or 5581 power tubes should not be set higher than 70 Milli-volts, or they will probably have a short life.

The bias can be measured with the multimeter that is set to DC volts, at the 200 Milli-volt setting. This multimeter setting for measuring the bias test point isn't clearly shown in the video.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:19 pm
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Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely keep all of that in mind when I'm in the market for some new power tubes. I should have specified, the power tubes actually have been replaced recently so I was looking more into changing the pre-amp tubes. Preamp tubes have a bigger overall affect on the tone too don't they?


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:20 pm
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Rossfloss wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely keep all of that in mind when I'm in the market for some new power tubes. I should have specified, the power tubes actually have been replaced recently so I was looking more into changing the pre-amp tubes. Preamp tubes have a bigger overall affect on the tone too don't they?

Absolutely, especially if you try a JAN Philips 5751 in place of your V1 preamp tube, or go further into expanded headroom with two (2) JAN Philips 5751 in place of your V1 and V2 12AX7 preamp tubes, leaving the phase inverter V3 as a high gain 12AX7 such as a Tung-Sol 12AX7.
This would also help the high gain channels on the Hot Rod which I consider to be quite harsh and somewhat unusable, as compared to the "Blues" versions of these amps.
Otherwise, using 3 Tung-Sol 12AX7 should be an improvement over the original GT 12AX7 preamp tubes.


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:10 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
Rossfloss wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely keep all of that in mind when I'm in the market for some new power tubes. I should have specified, the power tubes actually have been replaced recently so I was looking more into changing the pre-amp tubes. Preamp tubes have a bigger overall affect on the tone too don't they?

Absolutely, especially if you try a JAN Philips 5751 in place of your V1 preamp tube, or go further into expanded headroom with two (2) JAN Philips 5751 in place of your V1 and V2 12AX7 preamp tubes, leaving the phase inverter V3 as a high gain 12AX7 such as a Tung-Sol 12AX7.
This would also help the high gain channels on the Hot Rod which I consider to be quite harsh and somewhat unusable, as compared to the "Blues" versions of these amps.
Otherwise, using 3 Tung-Sol 12AX7 should be an improvement over the original GT 12AX7 preamp tubes.


Yeah i think I'll go for that. I've heard good things about tungsols. What will the 5751's do in V1 and V2? Overall cleaner sound and more clean headroom I'm assuming?


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:09 pm
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Rossfloss wrote:
Yeah i think I'll go for that. I've heard good things about Tung-Sols.
What will the 5751's do in V1 and V2? Overall cleaner sound and more clean headroom I'm assuming?

Like I alluded to above, the 5751's will change the character of the amp to some degree.
You may have to play it for awhile to determine if you like it, and to get used to it.
You do have to max out your bass control, which I used to have at 4 on my Blues Deluxe Reissue.
I wasn't sure at first.

But after playing it for awhile, in my opinion, the 5751's make these amps much more versatile.
The sound is just as full, but you have much more clean headroom.
I've really come to like the 5751's in V1 and V2, and I would never go back to using three (3) 12AX7 preamp tubes in my Blues Deluxe Reissue.

And like I said, the 5751's could do nothing but help the sound of the Hot Rod's high gain channels.
You can still overdrive the amp in the clean channel with fairly high volume, or easily overdrive it at lower volumes with an overdrive pedal. If you can afford the approximate $60.00 for the experiment, I highly recommend it.


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:08 am
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I saw Roy shortly before his death. He was using his old Tele plugged straight into a Roland Jazz Chorus, he sounded just like you would expect, AMAZING! It's nice to aspire to capture someone tone, we all do it. The more I play the more I'm convinced that tone comes from the hands also the heart and soul of the person they're connected to. Mick has given you some good quality info as he always does, don't hesitate to follow his lead on this subject. As far as your guitar goes a guy named Don Mare, a great pickup maker, has done a lot of research on the "Nancy" guitar. I would think a good quality tube amp of 40 watts or better would be fine, the DeVille should work for you. With an outdoor gig you will probably want to be mic'd just to add presence in the mains and monitors. Good luck.


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:13 am
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I definitely like how it cuts some bass. It seems like I have to have the bass knob at 4 and even then that seems like too much sometimes. I don't know if I even need more clean headroom with the Deville though. I haven't needed to turn it up that far yet. I'd honestly be more interested in some tubes that will add some smooth brightness. I haven't done much research yet but the JJ's aid with that don't they? I do need to start experimenting with different tubes though so I think I'll still try the 5751's.
Thanks for the help Mick!


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:24 am
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idacaster wrote:
I saw Roy shortly before his death. He was using his old Tele plugged straight into a Roland Jazz Chorus, he sounded just like you would expect, AMAZING! It's nice to aspire to capture someone tone, we all do it. The more I play the more I'm convinced that tone comes from the hands also the heart and soul of the person they're connected to. Mick has given you some good quality info as he always does, don't hesitate to follow his lead on this subject. As far as your guitar goes a guy named Don Mare, a great pickup maker, has done a lot of research on the "Nancy" guitar. I would think a good quality tube amp of 40 watts or better would be fine, the DeVille should work for you. With an outdoor gig you will probably want to be mic'd just to add presence in the mains and monitors. Good luck.


I definitely agree with the tone coming from the hands philosophy. Back when I was not as seasoned of a guitar player I was days away from changing out the humbuckers in my Les Paul or possibly even trading the whole guitar until I let a guy use it with my amp at a show and he made it sound exactly like Albert King. I couldn't believe my ears. Since then I spent more time practicing technique than wondering what kind of gear I needed and now I'm a thousand times better.

Yeah apparently the Roland Jazz Chorus is just a fresh amp. I've read of several great bluesman using them. Also read that they were used in Bob Marley & the Wailers which I've always marveled at that organic and rich sounding tone.

Yeah I need to experiment more with the Deville. I bought her used for 400 a couple months ago and just haven't messed with it much since I have a Blues Jr. It has saved my butt a couple times for some louder outdoor shows though.


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:55 pm
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Rossfloss wrote:
I definitely like how it cuts some bass. It seems like I have to have the bass knob at 4 and even then that seems like too much sometimes.

Exactly!
Rossfloss wrote:
I don't know if I even need more clean headroom with the Deville though. I haven't needed to turn it up that far yet. I'd honestly be more interested in some tubes that will add some smooth brightness. I haven't done much research yet but the JJ's aid with that don't they? I do need to start experimenting with different tubes though so I think I'll still try the 5751's.

I'm not real familiar with JJ's.
But if you want to add some smooth brightness, try the 5751's.
Don't forget to crank your Bass knob to "12" if you are using two (2) 5751's in V1 and V2.
And remember, it will take your ears some time to adjust to the new sound. Just hang in there for a little while.
I just get the feeling from your interest in the Vibrolux, that this might be just what you are looking for.

I just ordered a BBE Clean Boost to provide a little different type of overdrive than I get from the OCD or the BBE Green Screamer (Tube Screamer clone) that I sometimes use for overdrive, either separately, or occasionally in combination.
BTW I saw Roy in about 1974, and of course he and Nancy were great!!


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:30 pm
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I forgot to add that going to 5751's in V1 and V2 tube slots will also have the beneficial effect of eliminating any amp hiss almost entirely, and should tone down any guitar hum that you may have. I am using SCN noiseless pickups. The 5751's eliminate any slight residual hum that might be there.

I wouldn't recommend going below 5751's 70% gain in a Hot Rod style amp unless you are exclusively into traditional jazz or quiet country, or some similar genera where you would be looking for a very clean sound --- (or if you wanted to actually use the Hot Rod's high gain channels :lol: ).

Here are the gain factors for various preamp tubes:

Preamp Tube Gain Factors
12AX7=100%......Interchangeable with 12AY7, 12AT7, 5751
5751=70%.........Interchangeable with 12AY7, 12AT7, 12AX7
12AT7=60%.........Interchangeable with 12AY7, 5751
12AY7=45%.........Interchangeable with 12AV7, 12AT7, 5751
12AV7=41%.........Interchangeable with 12AY7
12AU7=19%.........Interchangeable with 12AV7

These tubes have common pinouts (9-pin or Noval) and similar voltage ratings.
Actual gain factors will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Maximum plate current will vary between types of preamp tubes.

The preamp tubes below have several equivalents. The gain factors are very similar.

12AX7 - ECC83, 7025, ECC803, E83CC, 6681
12AT7 - ECC81, 6201, 6679
12AY7 - 6072
12AV7 - 5965
12AU7 - ECC82, 5963, 5814, 6189

Here's a picture of an NOS JAN Philips 5751.
All of these NOS tubes have blueish heat markings on the pins from the manufacturing process.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:37 am
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Thanks again for the info Mick. I'm going to get on thetubestore.com and order a 5751 along with a few other types to try out. I heard putting a 12AT7 in the phase inverter makes the amp break up later. Is this true? Also, know of any other good websites to order tubes from?


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Post subject: Re: Tele --> Vibrolux Reverb ??
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:50 pm
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Rossfloss wrote:
Thanks again for the info Mick. I'm going to get on thetubestore.com and order a 5751 along with a few other types to try out. I heard putting a 12AT7 in the phase inverter makes the amp break up later. Is this true? Also, know of any other good websites to order tubes from?

I would imagine that putting a 12AT7 in V3 would cause the amp to break up later, but I have not tried this, so I really cannot comment.
Apparently, the Fender tolex era amps used a 12AT7 in the phase inverter as opposed to 12AX7's that were used in early Fender tweed amps. Give it a try, see what happens. Check out this article on the Phase Inverter:
http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting. ... verter.pdf

For my experimentation, I have chiefly relied on the recommendations of Derek Rocco, who is apparently the main guy at Watford Valves, a respected tube outlet in England. He has written about tube rolling using his Hot Rod style, Blues Deluxe Reissue.

Since I would assume, given his position, that he has the ability to widely experiment with tubes in all of the preamp tube positions in these types of amps, for me, there seems to be no reason to reinvent the wheel, particularly when I think his recommendations sound great.

Specifically, Derick has written:

Quote:
"I have been using a Blues Deluxe Reissue to evaluate amp and the speaker combinations. The reasons for this is that in November 2007 we will be bringing out an extension cab for this. This I feel is a great amp.

I used a 5751 in V1 and V2 with a balanced harma 7025 in V3. The 6l6 i liked the best was the Philips 6L6WGB, BUT FOR CLEANER SOUND I WOULD USE THE WINGED C SVETLANA 6L6GC."

http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/fo ... thread=364

As I noted in my post above, the 7025 that Derick is using in the V3 phase inverter slot is essentially a high quality, high gain 12AX7, similar to a Tung-Sol 12AX7. Derick is also using JAN Philips 5751's in V1 and V2.

Based on Derick Rosco's recommendations, which I have tried and think sound great in these types of amps, I can only recommend trying two 5751's in V1 and V2 and a 12AX7 in V3, as I have not experimented with V3 as you suggest.

Both the TubeStore and the TubeDepo have the NOS JAN Philips 5751's.
Tung-Sol 12AX7's are commonly available.

You may also enjoy checking out Watford Valves' Test Reports on 6L6GC valves.
http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/do ... ort_44.pdf

Good luck. Let us know how things turn out.


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