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Post subject: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:28 pm
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My Baja Player Tele is giving me fits. when I get it "Open" tuned satisfactorily, it plays noticably sharp on the "G" & "B" strings on the first 3 frets. Then when I tune it so that it sounds OK in those open chord areas, it becomes sharp on barre chords. I have set the intonation on every set of strings that I use and it checks out just fine at the 5th, 12th, and 17th frets. I use an old Conn tuner and it works just fine on all my other guitars & basses. In fact, they all tune just fine. Neither one of My Les Pauls have this problem. Nor does my '72 Jazz ......or any others.
This is my first Tele and I love it. If it doesn't make me crazy, I'm going to record with it.

I am a very capable guitar mechanic and I set up guitars for a number of players in my area. So I am really perplexed with this one.
If anybody has suggestions, I am all ears.

Crispy


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:19 pm
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Sounds like you may have a high fret...it happens. A good fret dressing will show up a number of oddities and often correct some minor annoyances.

How sharp or flat are you?


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:44 pm
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Eg.
pluck open "B" (#2 string) and tune correctly.
Then Pluck a note on the first fret. The tuning goes sharp by just a bit. Then it continues to be sharp until the fifth to sixth fret where it becomes relative to open "B" again.
Very much the same phenomenon on the "G" string.
If I tune the strings to OPEN tuning, then an open "D" chord is out of tune. Like wise "A" and "C" and "E" chords.
But if I tune the guitar to allow for the chords to be accurate, (Almost accurate) then I am splitting the difference and have to live with other chords being slightly out of tune. It makes me nuts. Not a single one of my other guitars does this.
The neck is just about as straight as you could wish for. And the frets seem to be very evenly seated and crowned.
A little voice in my head tells me that it is the way that the nut was cut at the factory. And it makes some sense that it would affect the tuning this way. But when I take it to
the dealer, they tell me "Good Luck with that".
I love the guitar because it has the "V" shaped neck.

Oh yeah........when I got the guitar, I immediately changed the bridge to a 6 saddle unit instead of the 3 saddle one that came with it. I could never get the intonation right with it before then. Otherwise, the guitar is just like original.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:48 pm
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If the intonation at the 12th fret checks out, and the sharpness in notes ONLY happens on the first 3 frets, then no doubt about it, your nut is too high. You need to have a skilled person lower the string slots a little so when you fret a note it doesn't have to be pushed so far to fret, which is what's causing your notes to go sharp ;)


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:29 am
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I hear ya!
But the action is wonderfully low already. And it is right down on the fretboard like a good Tele should be. Right on the verge of fret rattle.
I suppose you could still be right. And I have not done an accurate measurement of the string height at the first fret. So that will be the next thing to do. Then I will do the job myself.
In fact, if I do start working on the nut, I will be replacing it with a real bone nut that I cut from a large bovine femur bone so that I can get that thing to ring like a bell. I gotta tell ya, that I am not real enthused about the curvature in the groove that the nut sits in. It may well be a contributing factor in my problem. Too many machines!
And Gibson has too many machines too!
Thanks for the insight.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:55 am
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I'll second the nut issue...it may be too high or simply not cut properly..too sharp on the backside can do that.

I've not had ANY issues with my Baja but, I may not be as critical as you.
I have had some issues like you mention with a couple of other guitars and found that changing string gauges and lightening my touch seemed to suffice to my satisfaction.
On one or two I rounded out the back of the nut and added a bit more angle. I don't know if that, in itself, solved the problem or not because I also changed string gauges and did a new set up so,...??

One thing ...I use 10-24's (usually GHS Burnished Nickel) on most of my electrics because 1) after playing acoustic for 40+ years I have dense callouses and can't really feel lighter strings all that well and 2) I work with my hands daily so, they are quite strong and I tend to "over-fret" (push down too hard and de-tune).


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:48 am
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I also have a Baja, and did have some tuning issues which seemed to go away with a good setup. Specifically the intonation was way off when I purchased it new.
I have not yet changed out the bridge and if I did I was thinking of keeping the 3 saddle type with a compensating bridge. Did you notice any change in tone when you went to the 6 saddle bridge? Who's / what did you use?
Also thanks for the education on the nut issue and it's effect on tuning. :D


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:29 pm
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I had a similar problem on my mahogany body strat. It would go sharp when fretting chords near the nut on the big E,A,D strings. Checking I found that the nut was too high on the base side. This guitar has the roller nut and I was terrified at having to lower it as I had not attempted any repairs on this kind of nut. Anyway I went ahead and removed the nut and filed the slot in the neck slightly deeper on that side, reinstalled the nut and now the tuning and intonation are right on. Good luck on the repair.

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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:00 pm
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My MIM Baja originally had a straight 3 saddle bridge. I changed it to the Fender (old style) 6 saddle unit immediately. Because it was impossible to get the intonation right with the stock set. But I expected that. Some people say that the 3 saddle brass bridge sounds best. But honestly, I can't hear the difference between the brass and the old style 6 saddle bridge. I bought the guitar because it had the "V" neck and the "S" switching at a reasonable price. And I knew I could get it right with a little effort. But I first became aware that I couldn't EVER get it to tune right when I changed to a lighter gauge string. It came with 10-46 std. And it really plays best with them on the 21 fret neck. And the bigger string just sounds gooder to me. The lighter gauge string is when I first suspected that the nut was cut wrong in Mexico.(or wherever they cut it) I suspect that the break point is too far back from the fingerboard.
And I too have a heavy grip on the neck. So I can tell when it is just me, or if it is the nut giving me problems. I almost wish it would go flat so that I could make up for it with grip. But we all know it don't work that way.
I wonder if anyone on this forum would know if the radius of the nut groove is the same 7.25 as the fingerboard. Because I will NOT be using a precut Fender replacement nut. I will take my BONE to a machine shop before I put anymore plastic or synthetic bone crap on my guitar ever again. More than likely I will be able to file and grind my bone to perfection and make it work great. I don't own any guitars that other people don't lust after. They all bear my standards. Which are high. This guitar is already as good or better than any of the 010 or 011 models. It will just be even better when I get her nut right.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:44 pm
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crispy - interesting to learn that you can't hear the difference between 3 vs 6 saddle bridge. The Baja is my first Tele and I was fearful that I would loose the "magic" going to a 6 saddle bridge. Are the mounting holes are the same location?

I have a 2010 Amer Std. Strat with some very nice saddles. Is the "old Style" better from a tone standpoint? I thought the new "bent steel" saddles provided an improvement on tone. (realizing it is all a little subjective)

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:05 pm
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We are entering an interesting realm here. Opinion.
I do not hear any amplified difference between the 3 saddle brass compensated bridge and the old style Fender bent metal 6 saddle bridge. And I maintain that if your guitar is set up properly, your ears will not hear any difference either. And NO. The mounting plate holes are different on the 6 saddle plate than they are for the 3 saddle plate. But what's a few extra holes under the plate between friends.
Your Amer Std is a different beast from the Baja Player Tele. And I hope to get my hands on one some day soon. Hopefully before I finish a current recording project.
I am pretty impressed with the newer bridge assemblies. They seem to be very substantial and would probably make a guitar really ring if the tonewood of the body and neck mate together with the magic that we all crave. Overall, I think that the newer bridge designs are better suited to longer sustain than the older styles. I was being a cheapskate by using the older style 6 saddle because it would have been more expense and work for me to use the newer models. But I am getting old and I forget a lot of things.
What were we talking about?

Oh Yeah!
I'd really like to try a set of the cast roller style saddles. But I'll have to wait till I get the Strat because my Baja won't adapt to them easily due to added length. I think.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:08 pm
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Appreciate the answers. I'm going to start looking at bridges a little closer. I really like the bridge on the Amer. Std. but since I blocked out the trem, it probably has an easier life. The bridge options on the Tele are certainly much different and there are a number of options including Graph Tech. Very interesting.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:54 am
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I am blind in one eye and I don't see well out of the other one. So I took the Tele out and did a few comparisons with my trusty little measuring thingys and I am now approaching my tuning problem with the opinion that my nut is cut too high. Now I gotta either cut it deeper and live with it. Or I can try cutting it deeper and see the result. If the result is good, then I will proceed with my original plan to get the femur bone nut installed using the new cut measurements.
The second option will be my choice. But I will keep my old style bridge for the time being. The Tele rings pretty good now. And it will ring a lot better once I get its nut straightened out. It will only get better.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:46 pm
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As I understand it, nut height is only part of the equation. The point within the slot where the string last touches the nut (take off point) on it's way to the bridge is also important. Perhaps you need to check that too. Front vs back of slot contact.
I am afraid that my ears are no longer real sharp, thanks to many years on a Harley, and as long as I'm reasonably close I'm a happy camper. However as a mechanical engineer, I can't help but find this all fascinating.
Good luck. I love the idea of a real bone nut.


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Post subject: Re: Baja Player Tele Tuning problems
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:22 pm
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That theory has been exactly my hunch since I first hunched. And I now think that the depth is too shallow also. (Just exactly who is doing QC for MIM?)

And I don't believe that stuff about Harleys. Mine hasn't affected my hearing one bit. But firearms will wreak havok on your eardrums. Same with Jet aircraft. It's just a different kind of music. I find that my hearing is actually pretty good these days. Except for the constant tinitus, I can still mix a mean show from FOH. All I gotta do is get the SPL in the house above the tinitus. Usually 95 to 98db will do it. But 103 just feels so good.

And a good hard bone is perfect for the nut. Don't try to read anything into it. Just try it.


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