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Post subject: Intonation question
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:05 am
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Greetings all.
Recently purchased my first ever Tele. It is a Mex Dlx Blackout and I love it. My question concerns what is considered acceptable for tuning parameters. I assume that one thing that makes expensive guitars worth more is being closer to perfect pitch on every string at every fret but I would think this guitar should be pretty close for my untrained ear. When I tune the strings with a digital tuner I can get all the strings tuned perfectly yet the G and B strings will be extremely sharp in the first few frets. I took it back and had it re-set but it still is off.

Your advice is appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:46 am
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Interesting; thanks for the reply. A basic D chord is the worst. The opening lick to "Sweet Home Alabama" makes me sound like a total beginner struggling with a department store guitar.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:40 am
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I've experienced somthing similar on one of my Tele's. Small B & E strings were binding in the nut. Try lifting the string out of the nut and take a lead pencil and put a little graphite in the nut slots of the strings that are binding. Might help

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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:54 am
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Sounds to me like a simple intonation problem. Here's how you check intonation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZVRCMJLnm4
This really is a simple procedure, and should fix your issue. I too have a Blackout Tele, I bought it from Guitar Center and the setup was horrible and intonation was nowhere near correct. After a setup, which I did myself, the guitar plays amazing, and stays in tune perfectly. hth

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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:20 pm
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OK, after a lot of working on it I now have the B string tuned to Zero (using the tuner in my G-Dec) when open, fretted at the 12th fret, and the 12th fret harmonic. Playing that string in the first fret is +15, second fret +15, third fret +12, fourth fret + 11, fifth fret +10...and it steadily decreases until frets nine through 12 are perfect pitch.

Appreciate the suggestions.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:10 pm
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Ok, so this has been pretty frustrating. I have not had a lot of time to work with the guitar lately but over time I have been able to follow the video and set the intonation. I can't believe how far I had to move most of the screws; after having paid for a setup!?!?

Now that all the strings are set per the video instructions (and I did have to follow the advice of putting some graphite in the guides of the nut as I was finding the strings would change drastically after a behind-the-nut bend) I have found that the sixth string now also has a problem. Playing a G (third fret) it is so sharp the tuner sometimes thinks it is a flat G#.

Barring any other suggestions I am thinking of taking it back, having some different strings put on and have them set it up again and I will check it right there in the shop when they say it is ready.

I appreciate any more advice any of you may have.

Thanks,
John


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:30 am
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Hmm...If you got it setup properly and it's still having problems, I'd say there's a chance that your specific guitar has some type of problem besides intonation. My Blackout intonates very well and I've had no issues to speak of since I've set it up.
Another thing to check would be pickup height. This guitar's pickup seem to have a rather small sweet spot, and if adjusted to close to the strings they will cause some rather strange tuning issues. I'd say lower them real quick and see if that affects anything.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:51 am
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I agree with the previous poster, lower the pickups, especially the neck PU and set the intonation again.
Also check if the nut slot aren't to high which can create intonation problems.
A guitar uses a tempered tuning, so even with the intonation set perfectly it always is slightly out of tune in each chord which most of us can't hear anyway.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:33 am
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I agree with lostindesert you may have nut slots that are not cut deep enough. There is a simple way to check this by fretting the individual strings at the second fret and comparing the clearance at the third fret with that at the first fret when unfretted. If the slots are too high I would not attempt to lower them yourself unless you are experienced and have the proper files to do so. You need to also pay attention to the angle the slots are cut as they must contact the string at the fretboard side of the nut for you to get proper intonation and eliminate buzz. Anyway there are several sites where you can look up how to check this. Hope this helps.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:53 pm
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Guys, this sounds like classic high factory action at nut. If the E/B/G nut slots are lowered as far as possible without buzzing when played open, the normal sharping at the low frets (1, 2, 3 in decreasing order) will be 99% mitigated. Most guitars from the factory have too much string height at the nut, and it not only causes excess sharping at 1st and 2nd frets, but also heavy action.

This particular guitar may have had even higher than normal action at the nut.

Brian


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:07 am
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The finest subdivision of a note in music is "cents." Just like our dollar bill, there are 100 cents in every note, and this is also the finest setting most digital tuners will offer. The best human ear can only hear a difference of 3 cents, so if you can intonate to within 1 cent this can help your ears' satisfaction with your intonation at various other places on the fretboard where things may be slightly "off."

I don't care which music store or what price point of guitar, I have NEVER taken ownership of a guitar that was even 90% close to perfect intonation; I've always had to finish the job at home by myself. Second, the biggest offender -- that is, the most likely imperfection you'll find on any new guitar -- is almost always the quality of the work done to the nut at the factory. It's often hit or miss, with the Mexican factory in the past having the highest number of imperfect cuts. As was said before, often certain strings are left too high at the nut slot, causing those horrible intonation problems with open chords. It is worth the $20 to $40 with a luthier or good guitar tech to have this fixed after purchase, no matter if you have a $2k or a $200 Tele.

Regarding intonation through adjusting bridge pieces (a whole other concern), DO NOT intonate by comparing the 12th fret harmonic to the 12th fret fretted note. Use the fretted note at the 19th fret compared to the harmonic at the 19th. Try to get it to be LESS than 3 cents off, and you'll find you have much better intonation all over the fretboard. You'll be able to play barred chords, etc., at the 15th fret and so on. Most stores only intonate at the 12th, and it's usually a real rush job of a setup. Take your time and do it right; it's YOUR guitar after all.

Remember also that every player has a different "touch" on the guitar. Some depress heavily when fretting, some not. Some slightly push a string flat when fretting. The best techs of the stars learn how their employers play and make a few very subtle changes to setup to accommodate the player's touch. Try this for yourself and observe how you can push or pull a note flat or sharp when you fret, then check how you commonly fret notes in various places. Most of all, use your ears. If it doesn't sound right, if it sounds "off," well, then it is. I can spend most of a day to get a guitar just right, but it is so worth the time and effort.


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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:15 pm
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LeFever wrote:
...Regarding intonation through adjusting bridge pieces (a whole other concern), DO NOT intonate by comparing the 12th fret harmonic to the 12th fret fretted note. Use the fretted note at the 19th fret compared to the harmonic at the 19th. Try to get it to be LESS than 3 cents off, and you'll find you have much better intonation all over the fretboard. You'll be able to play barred chords, etc., at the 15th fret and so on. Most stores only intonate at the 12th, and it's usually a real rush job of a setup. Take your time and do it right; it's YOUR guitar after all...

The Blackout Tele has six (6) independent bridge saddles to adjust the intonation.
There is absolutely no need to check the intonation at the 19th fret.
If the intonation is set correctly at the 12th fret, it will be correct at the 19th fret.
The small distance in moving toward the bridge should not produce any difference in tuning from the 12th fret.
The only time that it is advisable to check the intonation at other areas of the neck is when you have a non-compensated three barrel bridge and an intonation compromise at the 12th fret is required.

When the intonation is set correctly at the 12th fret on a guitar with a six saddle bridge, as you move up the neck, and away from the bridge, the width of the frets compound to some degree, naturally causing a slight change in the intonation at the top of the neck. This should be imperceptible when you play.

If you have a tuner that has a strobe scale that is calibrated in reference to the "A" 440 Hz scale, where each string is in tune when the strobe light is on the 440 mark of the tuner, my Teles are all slightly sharp 2nd fret tuning in a range from 441 to 442 or possibly 443, and come more into tune as you go down the neck toward the 12th fret. It is important that you fret the strings consistently when checking the intonation, by holding your finger against any fret that you are checking.

bleilerjf wrote:
OK, after a lot of working on it I now have the B string tuned to Zero (using the tuner in my G-Dec) when open, fretted at the 12th fret, and the 12th fret harmonic. Playing that string in the first fret is +15, second fret +15, third fret +12, fourth fret + 11, fifth fret +10...and it steadily decreases until frets nine through 12 are perfect pitch. Appreciate the suggestions.

I'm not sure how the calibration of your tuner compares to my Hardwire Tuner "440 calibration scale," but the note should only be slightly sharp at the top of the neck, and basically imperceptible when you play. If your guitar is drastically sharp at the top of the neck when the intonation is set correctly at the 12th fret, you need to have an experienced guitar technician examine the nut. But it doesn't sound as though your B string, which is a C# at the 2nd fret, is actually getting into the D range, so I'm not sure that you really have a nut problem.

I would check the 12th fret intonation and notes at the 2nd fret again, making sure that your finger is against the fret.
If the B string, 2nd fret, C# tuning is not advancing into a flat D tuning, of what should be the D tuning at the 3rd fret, you should be OK. This would be the same for all of the rest of the strings as well.


Last edited by MickJagger on Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Intonation question
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:32 pm
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To be honest mate, take it back.

There are things to be done to fix it but as a recent purchase this is way too much hastle. I agree with someone above, there is ALWAYS work to be done on new guitars to set up properly but you have had this back and set up by the shop and it's still off!!!!

How did the tech blag that one??? If they offer to do it instore again, make sure you check it is done properly and some companies will even let you sit in during the setup.

You have been treated poorly by this shop so I would just take it back. If they won't play ball check your warranty too....

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Post subject: UPDATE!!!
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:06 pm
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First and foremost; thanks to all who provided suggestions.

I took the guitar to a Fender authorized Warranty center and they re-worked the nut. It now sounds perfect...well, in the hands of good guitarists it sounds perfect, in my hands it at least doesn't sound awful. :D


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