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Which option makes the most sense?
Modding the LP (please specify which method makes the most sense) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Proceeding with the Frankentele mod (please specify best method) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Abandoning both and just buying a tele (keep in mind that this would involve breaking a promise) 75%  75%  [ 3 ]
None of the above, buy X guitar (specify X) 25%  25%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 4
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Post subject: Help me decide between coil-tap LP mod or "Frankentele&
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:57 pm
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***EDIT: I have posted this same exact question on other message boards and have been told this was too long to follow. I posted a short-hand version on that forum and have copied it in on this a couple posts down. Feel free to just skip to the short one first, and if it leaves anything unanswered for you, just come back and cross reference this longer version. Thanks!***

I want to say thanks in advance for anyone who reads this, and then votes and/or posts (there's an awful lot here, I know). I'm stuck between two basic courses of action, modding a les paul with coil tap for the ability to go single coil or humbucker, and abandoning a "franken-telecaster" project that I'm not very far into, or pressing on with the telecaster, and leaving the les paul stock. And I can see about 9 different ways to approach this dilemma. I'll say right off the bat that I'm strongly favoring modding the paul, but there may be some very weighty objections to that approach that I may not be considering that you guys may be able to illuminate for me.

First, just a little background to better frame why I'm asking the question. Feel free to skip this portion (indicated by ---) and get right to the question, but if you slog through it, I think it'll help you make a more informed decision, and make some of the otherwise potentially confusing nuances in my question make more sense (I would prefer you read the backstory, but don't feel obligated) :

__________________________________________________

I have a 2008 Gibson Studio Vintage Mahogany (Les Paul, of course) and I love it, but I thought it'd be nice to have, say, a Telecaster to go alongside it so that I could have the diversity of both single coil and humbucker sounds.

Within the past year, I have bought the Gibson, an American Standard Fender Jazz Bass, and a used circa 1999 japanese made Yamaha TRB 5IIF active fretless 5-string bass (probably about $1200, maybe $1300 when it was new), trading in all my Mexican Fender, and Epiphone gear in the process (about 7 instruments total) and so, not only did I feel like I had spent too much in too short a time, but so did my wife, close friends, and other family (mom, dad, brother, etc) and they asked me to promise I wouldn't go out and buy another guitar, at least for quite some time. I had no problem agreeing to this, as the whole point of doing this was to have a few really nice guitars so that I wouldn't need to go out and buy more.

But while I love humbuckers, and easily prefer them over single coils, I did begin to sense their limitations relative to single coils, and so I thought I would like to find a way to get something that'd work. Well, I had an old teisco tulip guitar and an extra pickguard for it (since all the electronics were mounted into the pickguard) and so I scored me a set of American Standard Fender Tele pickups and an American Standard Strat middle position pickup, and had the Teisco modded. At first blush, I kinda dug it, cause I could hear the similarities between it and a real tele, but really quick, that faded,and all that I could notice was the dissimilarities...in other words, it was a failed experiment. My dad had said, go out and get yourself a Tele neck and a Tele body, and build yourself a Tele. These pickups are just too good for this junk body.

Okay, so that was the plan. I knew if I were going to do this, I should make it worth my while, so I wasn't going to mess with squier, probably was going to stay away from mexican fender, and probably from any 3rd party people. In other words, I was looking for some American made fender stuff. But all the necks and bodies I could find on e-bay were all between $350-$450 a piece, so $700-$900 total on just the neck and body and then there's the bridge, the nut, etc, and all the misc electronics. All told, I'm looking at paying about the same price as if I just went out and bought an Am Std Tele right off the shelf.

Well, I was in the guitar center the other day just messing around and I got to try out the Gibson Les Paul Trad Pro, which has...coil tap! I fell in love with the tapped coil (read: single coil) sound out of the Les Paul, and especially the ability to do HH, SS, SH, or HS.

I spent about 3 hours going back and forth between the LP in SS mode and an Am Std Tele, and for the most part I thought the LP sounded better. Plus, I am definitely convinced (as subjective as this may be) that the LP both looks and feels better than the tele.

Plus, I was really excited about being able to do the work of two guitars (HH, SS), four really (HS, SH) in just one guitar. I learned my lesson back in the MIM Fender/Epi days that having a whole bunch of guitars is not necessarily a great thing, and if I could do the work of a Tele and a LP on just my LP, that sounds great!

Later, I discovered "Jimmy Page wiring" on a youtube video, and the idea of adding phase in/out, and parallel/series is an even more intriguing option. As an alternative, I know Seymour Duncan has a triple shot pickup ring where I could do all but the phase option right there at the pickup (though I'd be worried about the bulged ring impacting playability, and cosmetics, plus not being the easiest to toggle mid-riff)

However, not everybody has thought this mod idea to be as brilliant as I have. Both my father, and father-in-law, both seasoned guitarists of decades and decades, and one of which, a Les Paul owner say it's a terrible idea to mod the Les Paul:

Reason 1: it's too nice, and too expensive a guitar to be "chopping up" (even though mine's only the $800 model, which while certainly not "chump change" is also not paralyzingly oppressive. It's no $3000 jobbie I'd be tinkering with).

Reason 2: They say that even if I make absolutely no body mods, and keep all the original everything, and make the mod -totally- reversible, that it still will never be the same guitar again. They say that if I start taking stuff out, even if I put it back exactly the same way, it still wont be quite the same. They say that no matter what I do, I'll never be able to truly go back.

I don't see how that could be, unless they're thinking of soldering joints, but my LP is a circuit board, so I really could return it to spec. The only thing I may not be able to revert to spec would be I'd have to convert 2 conductor pickups to 4 conductor, and how would it work if I wanted to revert them back later, I suppose for added cost, I could leave my pups alone, take them out, buy another set of burstbuckers expressly for the purpose of converting them, and then I have my unmodded originals to include in the restore if I ever restored it.

But the fact that they both said the same thing without even talking to each other, makes a compelling case. I'm not sure if it's compelling enough to stop me, but now I do have a reasonable case against modding it, and a compelling reason to start branching out and trying to find some more opinions abroad as to whether this is wise or foolish.
__________________________________________________

So, the way I see it, I have really 9 options, which are variants of two basic possible course of action (mod the paul and abandon the tele, or go for the tele and leave the paul alone) Please help me out here. Should I:

A) keep the Les Paul "virgin" at all costs, go ahead, bite the bullet, and keep the plan to build myself a "franken-tele", keeping my word, if only by technicality, to not go out and just buy an all-new guitar (even though the franken-project would cost almost or even as much, possibly even more).

B) keep the Les Paul "virgin" but explain to my friends and family that it would cost me equal or less to just go buy an Am Std (or even Highway 1) Telecaster than to do the "franken-tele" and that it'd also be a safer bet, with a surer product and a higher resale value

C) Jimmy Page the paul, feeling comfortable to mod the burstbuckers already in there to 4 conductor, and only end up spending like $150 all told for the mod, parts, and labor)

D) Jimmy Page it, but snag a new set of burstbuckers so you can keep your original untouched in case you want to revert, but adding about $200 to the project.

E) Seymour Duncan mod it, modding the pickups

F) Seymour Duncan it, getting a new set of pickups to mod

G) Mod the LP, but by some other means (please specify method)

H) Go the frankencaster route, leaving the LP alone, but go for cheaper body parts (either lower quality or comparable quality 3rd party) (please specify)

I) Neither. Go buy X guitar (please specify X)

(It'd be important to note that with any of these options except for the franken-tele approach (so, any option other than A or H), I can actually sell the tele/strat pups that I have to help offset the cost, and if I do that, and then go, say, option C, I may only end up having to shell like $50-75 out of pocket ultimately)

(It's also important to note that this is also a debate over which kind of diversity of tone is more important. Is it more important to have a guitar that's alder/maple/maple/bolt-on that has actual fender tele pups in it -and- a guitar that's mahogany/mahogany/rosewood/set neck that has actual gibson humbuckers in it and not have any sort of HS/SH options, and not have any sort of phase or series/parallel options -or- is it more important to have a guitar that can do SS/HH/SH/HS/phase/and series-parallel that is mahogany/mahogany/rosewood/set neck whose SS sounds reasonably similar to a tele but is not quite the same? Which is the more important style of diversity of tone to have? That's what this really ultimately comes down to. I've got to admit, I'm leaning towards the second kind of diversity being the more important and the more versatile. And the fact that it'd only take one guitar to do the work of two-four guitars and looks and feels as good as a Gibson Les Paul…that's awfully compelling, especially considering I think I actually like the sound of the SS paul a little better than the sound of the tele, and definitely like the looks and feel better!)

Alright guys, once again, I appreciate the read, and the input (via vote and via post). Thanks very much for taking the time (there was a lot here!)

God Bless!


Last edited by JaySeeDoubleYou on Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:58 pm
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Just to clarify:

I do not mean to imply that the tele and the coil tapped paul sound the same. They don't. But for my purposes, and to my ear, they do sound similar enough that I can live with the differences...indeed, on first blush, I think the coil tapped Paul sounds -better- than the tele. I also didn't mean to imply that it's a tele sound that I specifically -must- have, but rather, a single coil sound is what I'm after, it's just that among the single coil options out there, the Tele was always my favorite...and now that I've played the coil-tapped paul, I can't even say with certainty that that's true any longer. I had heard of coil tap, understood the basic concept of it, but the genius of it was totally lost on me. Now that I've messed with it first hand, it has totally revolutionized the way I look at the quest for single coil sounds.

Plus, I would be able to do all that I want to do, and then some (HS/SH/phase, etc) in just one guitar, vs not being able to do that stuff and even what I can do, not be able to do it in just one guitar, but keep having to put one down and pick one up, and so on and so forth, plus have to lug two guitars around and double the risk of damage and loss. The only advantages to having the tele, one practical, and one not, would be a) having a slightly broader range of "personalities", and b) being able to say I'm in the Les Paul club, -and- the Telecaster club. But I would do it at the cost of a broader range of "features", and I'm almost wondering if that is the more important thing.

The only real hesitation I have on modding the paul is what my father and father-in-law say that there's no way to ever truly revert a guitar once you've modded it. I'm not even sure that's true, and if it is true, I'm not even sure that'd stop me, but that is still something that is worth heavy consideration. Would you say they are right?

Thanks!


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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:53 pm
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***Note: this is a short-hand version of the same question which was in response to people on another thread saying the first post was too long (which, I'll admit) :) I copied it over just in case anybody here was having the same issue and just being too polite to speak up. :D. Thanks guys!***

Yeah, I find myself writing longer things than I intend to sometimes. I'm told I write like a puritan, attending to every little caveat and nuance. The pastorate, Lord willing, is my end game, and so this will likely be a benefit to me in that office, especially when the discussion turns to finer points of theology...but methinks in the message board medium it's probably not exactly a virtue, eh?

Okay, let me try to give you a radically simplified "fly-over" rendition, and then you can simply cross reference the original super-long version to fill in any blank spots this summary creates:

I have a Gibson Les Paul and I have a set of American Standard Telecaster pickups that are currently sitting in a Teisco body as a failed experiment. I like the sound of the telecaster. I have long said it is my favorite guitar with single coil pickups in it. But what I'm after is not necessarily the telecaster sound, but just a way to have single coil pickups available for me to use without having to buy a whole new guitar. Now, I tried the coil-tapped Gibson Les Paul the other day and thought it was the bomb! I liked it -at least- as much, if not -more- than the American Telecaster.

Okay, that's the wind up, here's the pitch:

I can either modify my Les Paul to support coil-tap (and phase and series/parallel whiile I'm at it) and sell of the tele pickups I have to offset the cost of this mod.

-or-

I can press on with the original plan which was "frankentele", if you will. I go out on ebay get a MIA Fender Tele neck, go out and get a Fender Tele body, all the miscellaneous hardware and electronics, and build me a telecaster around the pickups (the pickups being the only thing I have)

Advantages of going for the tele: I get a little more diversity of tone by having Fender tele pups and Gibson humbuckers in two guitars that are made of different types of woods and are even constructed differently (bolt on straight neck vs. set neck that leans back towards my body), and I get the distinction of not only saying: "I'm in the Les Paul club", but also "I'm in the Telecaster club" too (for what that's worth)

Advantages of going for the LP mod: I not only can do HH or SS like I could with the LP and the Tele, but can also do HS, or SH (which I have found to be useful configurations, HS for clean and SH for dirty!) plus, I can do neat tricks like phase and series/parallel. And I can do it all in just one guitar, so I don't have to keep picking up and setting down guitars, and so I don't have to lug two guitars around with me if I were to go to a jam session or if I were asked to play, which cuts in half my risk of loss, damage, or theft. The LP in single coil mode doesn't sound the same as a tele, but it's a reasonable substitute, and to be honest, I think I like the sound of it -better- than the tele.

I'm almost entirely sold on the LP mod, but I wanted to make sure there weren't any exceedingly weighty reasons why I may want to reconsider. I've been told that even if I save all the old hardware, wiring and everything from the stock configuration, and even if I put it back exactly the way it was, it still won't be quite the same guitar ever again. I don't know if that's even true, and even if it is, I don't know that that would stop me...but that's the only serious consideration against it that I've heard so far. The only one that gives me pause. Are there any other reasons why I shouldn't do it?

If I were to be completely honest, I'm looking to do the mod, and simply giving you all the chance to talk me out of it if there's a good enough reason. I'm giving you guys the chance to help keep me from "pitching off a cliff", if you will. Am I in any danger?

I hope that was simplified enough and brief enough, guys! :-)

Sorry for my "mega-post" there! Hoping to hear back soon with more feedback from the crowd! :-)


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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:04 pm
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I will admit, I didn't read all of that. Still, I feel confident in telling you: GO FOR THE TELECASTER. 8)


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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:12 pm
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BlackCatBone wrote:
I will admit, I didn't read all of that. Still, I feel confident in telling you: GO FOR THE TELECASTER. 8)


I did the same thing, to much for me to comprehend all at once. :) I'd leave the Gibson as is and if you must mod , go with the Tele. I love my guitars stock. The way Fender built them, but it's your dime and mind!! :wink:


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:08 am
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Telecaster?

Tele Blast Her!

Go and be a Tele Master!!

CC

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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:19 pm
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Hi there Jay, seems like your concern for your family member's advise is a real factor here. So my vote is to leave the Gibson stock for now. As far as a Tele goes, it sounds like you prefer the feel of a Gibson. It would be my advise, that you find a solid Epiphone with good body and neck( consider the electronics history) to be used as the platform for the experimenting. This way you'll be free to drill and install pots,switches, and jack of a quality that will hold up to the inevitable resoldering you'll be doing. Then, after a year or so of trial and error, make the decision about modding the Gibson. I'm an old amp tech-player, who has spent almost two years turning a derelict '68 Basman into a fine guitar amp, and still tweaking it. Just my opinion. Good Luck! ART

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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:39 pm
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aclempoppi: I can -definitely- see the wisdom in that advice! I think that's a great suggestion, and under normal circumstances, that is an avenue that I would very seriously consider following.

You are correct that seeking the advice of men wiser than me, and giving it due consideration is important (hence posting this question not only on this forum, but on four others), and to that end, I definitely don't want to just blow off the words of both my father and father-in-law, who tell me that once you mod it you can't go back.

But two things:

one: even more important than that, is to try and be faithful to my word. I told my wife, my brother, my parents, and some of my closest friends after buying the Gibson, the American Jazz Bass, and the (originally) $1300 Yamaha Fretless that that would be -it- (at least, for a long time), and so, going out and buying a new guitar is not something I'd do without their blessing (not that I'm a child who needs their permission, but a man who at least makes a concerted effort to be a man of his word, who if he bound himself to someone on something would not want to go back on that without them releasing me from it themselves). So, to that end, the reason I was even considering the franken-tele in the first place was so that I could have a tele without (at least technically) breaking my word to everybody. Otherwise, I'd just have gone out and bought a Tele right off the shelf. So, if a telecaster that would be a permanent fixture would not fly, an Epiphone, which would only be a tester, or else onto the next test (or a back up to the Gibson at best) would certainly be out of the question.

two: from what I'm learning on these five forums that this question has gone up on, the reason "you can't ever truly go back" is because you'll never be able to get the solder connections quite the same ever again. Therefore, the sound would never be quite right again. Well, good news for me: my gibson is all printed circuit board with all snap-on connectors. No desoldering/resoldering required. Granted, I'd have to take out -everything- that was in there before (including the pickups, and even the pickup selector knob) and replace it with all new stuff, but unless someone wants to argue that the wood itself acclimates itself to new electronics, and can never truly acclimate itself back (which makes no sense to me whatsoever) then the mod would be truly fully reversible if I ever wanted to make it stock again, the solder concern wouldn't apply to me.

Lastly, one quote from a guy on one of the other boards about the whole "you can't go back" thing which I find pretty compelling:

"Yes if you mod the LP then there is a strong argument for "it can never truly go back to original" but I have 2 thoughts about that.

1. If it was a classic guitar - for example a '59 LP I would never mod it. However, a 2008 studio is not. Could it one day be considered a modern "holy grail" guitar? Sure, and the Pope could be a practicing $@! too I guess? Anything is possible.

2. If you truly plan to keep the guitar (hard to know as a lot of people like to always trade) then go ahead and mod it.

I have this mod on my '78 LP and I'm happy I did it. But I also modded this LP out way back around 1980 or so in other ways so I was past the point of no return on the modding.

I voted mod the LP. Of course I would also hold on to those tele pups and eventually build one to your specs."

Methinks this guy may be onto something! :)

Thanks again, aclempoppi!!


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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:02 pm
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Yeah Jay, you know I read your whole post and I kind of skimed that section. I thought you were just listing gear, my bad. Yeah, you're stuck with that promise. In this case I would go with making that Gibson the one you want play! "Going back" ? Unless the guitar was purchased as an investment or collectible, I don't see a conflict in building it to your preferences. I mean, who is going to be playing it? ART

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