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Post subject: Mystery (Unmarked) Tele
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:13 pm
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A friend inherited what appears to be a 'custom shop' type tele. It looks like some faux aging of the finishes and it has a white strat type pickup in the middle position with a 5-way selector. It is a reddish sunburst with white binding. The interesting thing is that it is completely unmarked. No Fender logo, no serial number - NOTHING. I have not taken anything apart to look inside though.

I am not even certain it was made by Fender. Can anyone tell me what this might be?


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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:16 am
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I hate to dash any dreams you may have thinking it's a long-lost collectible but it may be impossible to determine.

First off, with the inheritance, it has an absolutely unknown heritage.

Second the lack of any identifying marks on the headstock pretty much puts the last nail in that coffin.

It may be a Fender body that someone has put an aftermarket neck on it. Or it could be true 'franken-tele' pieced together out of Heaven knows what parts.

Maybe pull the neck and pick guard to see if there's anything there.

Do a Google search and select images, you might find something similar there.

Bottom line - how does it play? If your friend likes it and it has a good sound, don't worry about it.

Sorry to be so negative over your hopes that it's really something nice. I keep cruising by yard sales looking for an original '52. So far that hasn't happened either.


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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:19 pm
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Thanks for the info.

The guitar plays great and is of quality construction.

The owner's husband passed away and left a collection of about 20 nice instruments and other gear. I am trying to help her determine a value for insurance purposes.

There are no junkers in the collection which includes several custom shop Strats and other really nice pieces (Gretsch, Martin, Gibson, Ramirez, Rickenbacker and even a nice Danelectro) but this one is a stumper.

Does any one build unmarked customs?


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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:27 pm
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Here is a photo. Anyone seen one like this before?

http://radio-umrk.com/amy/mysterytele.jpg


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:38 pm
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Well, I apologize, I misunderstood part of your post. Yes, it does have some provenance, coming from a collection like that.

Does look to me still like a 'Franken-Tele' but someone with a better eye and more knowledge than I needs to look at it. Your picture will help other board members give a more educated opinion.

I'm guessing a Fender body someone has mod'ed. With an aftermarket neck? You're going to have to have someone pull the neck and get in under the pick guard to tell for sure.

If you have the expertise for either I'd advise to go ahead and do that and take more pictures of
the electronics and wiring on the switch plate
the installation of the pickups (closeup of each one)
the tuners so we can identify what they are
a closeup of the bridge
the back
the jack connector.

Say, there's no scribing or any identification on the bridge plate either?

Interesting mystery.


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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:09 pm
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If it was my guitar I would open it up in a heartbeat. I may have my tech do that if it can't be identified any other way and the owner agrees.

There are ZERO markings anywhere externally. The owner THINKS it was a special order from Fender's Custom Shop but has no documentation.

Thanks for the tips.


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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:27 am
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Without taking the neck off and having a peek around the heel and pocket your never going to determine if its a fender or anything else given that it has no external markings. Its certainly a nice piece, you can see that just from looking at it.

What i think you need to do is investigate your friends partners life. Look at his friendships, did he know any local builders? Could it maybe be a project that said partner undertook? Maybe even their first guitar that has been preserved through the ages.

Theres a lot for you to look at. I lean towards a project guitar that the deceased built or had built. Simply because of the lack of external markings. Its highly unlikely to be a fender. I dont know of any case of them letting anything out of the factory unbranded.

All the best with the 'private investigations'.

Nick :)

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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:56 am
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Thanks all. Good advice.


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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:20 am
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nikininja wrote:
Without taking the neck off and having a peek around the heel and pocket your never going to determine if its a fender or anything else given that it has no external markings. Its certainly a nice piece, you can see that just from looking at it.

What i think you need to do is investigate your friends partners life. Look at his friendships, did he know any local builders? Could it maybe be a project that said partner undertook? Maybe even their first guitar that has been preserved through the ages.

Theres a lot for you to look at. I lean towards a project guitar that the deceased built or had built. Simply because of the lack of external markings. Its highly unlikely to be a fender. I dont know of any case of them letting anything out of the factory unbranded.

All the best with the 'private investigations'.

Nick :)


+1 hmm...21 frets....no exterior markings :?

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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:41 am
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I'm a little slow today. What is "+1 hmm"? Sorry.


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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:46 pm
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johnhealy wrote:
I'm a little slow today. What is "+1 hmm"? Sorry.


Just means that Mike agree's with my analysis/advice. It wouldnt be american standard or deluxe because of the 21fret neck.

Also whilst were into looking closely at the piece, the butterfly string tree. Is that correct for a tele. I only ever see them with buttons. The body also has quite a thick clearcoat to it. Probably urethane, notice the upper bout's funny markings in the lacquer. Almost like orange peel, shown up by the flash. The body join appears to be good and center but not the best match of grains which rules out customshop. Also the new dings around the lower strap button area of the top of the body look far too clean against the aged/grubby hardware when you see the picture full sized. The low Estring is too near the edge of the fretboard, the highE is correct position. Both A&B strings disect the 12th fret dot markers in the correct place and the D&G strings run parrallel to the other dots.

Curiouser and curiouser. I'd say its not fender but a project guitar.

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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:34 pm
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Thanks for posting a pic. That helps so much and I wish all the people here who want help identifying a guitar would do this.

Here are my thoughts on that Tele, for whatever they’re worth.

Quote:
the butterfly string tree. Is that correct for a tele. I only ever see them with buttons.


Yes, Teles had and some still are made with butterfly string trees. Check out these current models here at this site for reference:

American Vintage ’62 Reissue Telecaster
MIM ‘60s Classic Tele

This guitar could also be a genuine vintage Telecaster, but since the original poster mentions “faux aging”, I’m going to assume it’s a newer model that has been made to look old. Let’s compare it to this guitar:

http://www.fender.com/products//search. ... 0106200857

The type and location of the string tree, the rosewood fingerboard, the truss rod adjustment (at the heel), and the tuners look correct for a ‘60s-spec Tele. That doesn’t positively identify anything; I’m just saying they’re of that style. The neck COULD be from a AV ’62 RI and the decal was removed, intentionally or accidentally. Decals on the ’52 and ’62 RI Teles are applied on top of the neck finish, like they used to be in the old days, and it’s easier to get one of those logos off than on the more modern Teles (and the MIM Classic series) because these have the decal UNDER the finish.

That said, the neck could have come from any number of sources – Warmoth, Allparts, or any other aftermarket neck manufacturer too. It’s impossible to know from just that picture.

The 3-color sunburst body with white binding is consistent with a AV ’62 RI Tele, but again Tele bodies are available from lots of sources other that Fender.

Flat-top volume and tone knobs and a “top hat” switch tip are also consistent with a AV ’62 RI but again, widely available, easily changed, and commonly aged to look old.

The bridge is interesting. First, it has compensated saddles for improved intonation. These, to me, indicates a player who is familiar with Teles, hangs out on the internet and reads about modifications, and isn’t afraid to swap parts on a guitar.

The other thing I notice about the bridge is it looks like there’s no FENDER stamp there and it looks to me like it might have been sanded off. That could just be a smudge on a generic (no-name) aftermarket bridge or it could be an irregularity in the photo, but I think I see sanding marks right below the bridge pickup in the center.

Now, let’s talk about the pickguard and the two pickups. Let’s ignore the middle pickup for now.

Everything on this guitar is “60s style” except the fact that the neck pickup is hung from the pickguard instead being mounted to the body. Those pickup adjustment screws around the neck pickup wouldn’t be there in a real ‘60s Tele nor on a reissue.

Now add the white-covered middle pickup and the tortoise shell pickguard and I think we’re looking at the pickguard assembly from a MIM Nashville Deluxe Tele. See here:

http://www.fender.com/products//search. ... 0135300332

These assemblies are commonly sold on eBay. Looking at the picture of the guitar in question, it looks to me like the protective plastic might still be on that pickguard. Look to the left of the 21st fret and then halfway between the end of the neck and the neck pickup on the left side. Are those wrinkles in the plastic? The angle at which the light is shining on that guitar makes the pickguard look very dull, as if the factory plastic is still on. Unlikely for an “aged” guitar, but possible.

My guess: this guitar is either a AV ’62 RI Telecaster that has had the logo removed and been routed for a middle pickup and had the Nashville pickguard assemby added, or a Telecaster put together from parts - whether all Fender, some Fender, or no Fender parts. My guess is mostly Fender parts but it’s impossible to say from that photo alone.

The lack of a decal is puzzling – if someone wanted to make a “fake” Fender, they easily could have put on a fake decal which are available on eBay and elsewhere. The owner doesn’t seem the type to buy fakes or parts-guitars, if he also owned “Gretsch, Martin, Gibson, Ramirez, Rickenbacker and even a nice Danelectro”. An AV ’62 RI is in line with these other guitars in terms of quality, price, and “image” and if he played it a lot it’s possible the decal went missing honestly along the way.

But, then there's the "faux aging" thing. Are his other guitars artificially aged too? Could the aging on this Tele be geniune?

There’s another possibility – this guitar could have been stolen somewhere during it’s life and the thief removed the Fender Telecaster decal from the headstock and also sanded the FENDER stamp off the bridge plate to prevent positive identification. Obviously I’m just guessing here.

I doubt it’s a Fender Custom Shop product because it’s unlikely that anyone would remove both the Fender and Custom Shop decals which would de-value the instrument greatly.

Questions for John:

1. Is there a serial number stamped on the neckplate? I’m assuming not or you’d have posted it. Could one have been there and have been sanded off?

2. Is there white binding on the back edge of the body also or just on the front?

3. Would you consider removing the neck to look for any date stamps and lifting the pickguard and control plate to take some photos of what’s under there?

4. Also, a straight-on shot of that headstock might help. Due to the angle of that photo with the guitar leaning back, it’s hard to judge the contour of the headstock curves on the side opposite the tuners.

5. Is there a walnut "skunk stripe" on the back of the neck?

6. Look closely at the back of the neck about an inch above where it meets the body. Any sanding marks in the clear finish?


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:21 pm
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The logo ontop of lacquer is done intentionaly to be vintage correct. This is no time machine guitar. I've never seen a customshop body with such missmatched grain. Also the dings look like the guitar hasnt been played since they were done. Note also the funny coloured fret dots. A bit grey to my eye, not the slight red or brown of clay dots.

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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:05 pm
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Thanks SOOO much for the detailed post. The only one of your questions that I can positively answer is that there are no markings at all anywhere. Not on the backplate, headstock (front or rear) or the bridge pickup backplate.

I will take a better look at the back of the guitar for your other questions and post more pictures as soon as I can. Maybe next week.

I really appreciate the help everubody.


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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:45 pm
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It seems my memory failed me but after a reminder from the owner and a look at my notes I can report that there IS a serial nunber in the neckplate on the back.

L10342

Sorry to have forgotten this important detail.


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