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Post subject: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:08 am
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Hello, here is a detailed layout of what is going on. Hope someone can assist, I am stumped on this one...

Hardware: Fender 72 Telecaster Deluxe RI. I removed the plate, electronics and bridge saddles and replaced with GraphTech saddles. The plate was replaced with custom plate that has Strat-pickup routing to convert it to a Strat setup. The pups are New-Custom Shop Texas Specials. Pots are CTS/CRL Switch and standard wiring. The only mod I have added is a Trem-Bleed. Tuner used for intonation is a Peterson VS-F.

Problem: After rebuilding this guitar, there is significant irritating vibrato effect from the B, G & D string around the 12th to 18th fret. I've read somewhere that having the pickup height set to high can pull on the strings pulling them out of intonation and personally have witnessed this before. Having experienced this before I was able to fix the issue with pup adjustments. But with this guitar, I've lowered the pups almost flush with the plate and still experience this issue. The intonation has been checked, rechecked and triple checked. I've replaced the strings once already, problem remains.

Also Note: I have another 72 Tele Deluxe RI where I did the same thing, but instead of Strat pickup setup, I set it up as a Les Paul configuration. Zero issues with that one...


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 pm
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You could try raising the action slightly, it sounds like you may have either high frets or a tongue bow in the offending area. Or it could be the nut slots are to low or both.


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:32 am
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It still could be a pickup height issue, TexSpecials can be tricky. Did the problem change (get better) when you lowered the pickups?

But it might also be setup related (shouldn't be the nut if the weirdness happens on frets 12-18, IMHO).
What's the action now, what's the relief?

And, since the guitar was rebuilt, I'm thinking resonance: Have you tried damping the strings (rubber band or such) on the headstock side of the nut? Are the bridge saddles level, are the saddle height adjustment screws properly in place? Are all screws & nuts properly tightened, including and especially on the tuning machines of those strings? Etc...


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 pm
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Ok guys, here a few updates for you on what has been tried so far.

Tried a 3rd set of GHS Boomers. Went from 10's to 11's - no improvement.
Raised the string height a bit, currently above standard requirements, zero fret buzz - no improvement.
Lowered all 3 pickups to near pickguard level - no improvement.
Checked and rechecked bridge saddles (graph-tech) to ensure stability - no improvement.
I plucking the strings in question while pressing down saddles - no improvement.
Inverted middle pickup even though it creates unwanted out of phasing - no improvement.
Inverted bridge pickup even though it creates unwanted out of phasing - no improvement.
Measured the Pickups: Neck 6.2ohm Middle 6.3ohm Bridge 7.1ohm - no issues here

Someone has also suggested wiring issues. The correct gauge and wire type (from Stewmac) is always used during my mods, repair & setups. This is a Strat pickup setup with 5way toggle and only a Volume. I left the 2 Tone pots out.

I might try swapping back to the original saddles this week and if that doesn't work, I'm switching to Fender Noiseless pickups which I have had lots of success with. I am also working with someone from Fender via email on this providing the same updates.


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:09 am
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Wiring gauge and type are can't be the issue.

Guitar set up need to use some well know measurements, do not work by eyes, it like you are playing loto :lol:

If neck bow, action and pickups height are under measurements specs, issue are elsewhere.
Good books to learn how to set up guitar. :)

https://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Electr ... 0879309989

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Player-Re ... oks&sr=1-5


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:21 am
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This may be one of those situations where the web diagnosing just isn't enough...

You've tried plenty of fixes, but one thing you don't mention (except maybe between the lines on that .010/.011 string gauge change) is the relief. And with problem guitars, as st52 says, it's always best to measure. So, what's the relief on that neck?
And use the Fender measuring way, please, so the result is understandable/comparable;
Quote:
First, check your tuning. Affix a capo at the first fret and depress the sixth string at the last fret. With a feeler gauge, check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret


One thing, although it's just vague guessing. I don't know about your neck angle, but if your strings run close to the body, the "lowered all 3 pickups to near pickguard level" might still keep the TexSpecials too close to the strings. That possibility can be evaluated by the saddles; do they sit low or high on the height adjustment screws. And the correction would be to shim the neck - which might not be a bad thing to test anyways.


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:23 am
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jmattis wrote:
This may be one of those situations where the web diagnosing just isn't enough...

You've tried plenty of fixes, but one thing you don't mention (except maybe between the lines on that .010/.011 string gauge change) is the relief. And with problem guitars, as st52 says, it's always best to measure. So, what's the relief on that neck?
And use the Fender measuring way, please, so the result is understandable/comparable;
Quote:
First, check your tuning. Affix a capo at the first fret and depress the sixth string at the last fret. With a feeler gauge, check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret


One thing, although it's just vague guessing. I don't know about your neck angle, but if your strings run close to the body, the "lowered all 3 pickups to near pickguard level" might still keep the TexSpecials too close to the strings. That possibility can be evaluated by the saddles; do they sit low or high on the height adjustment screws. And the correction would be to shim the neck - which might not be a bad thing to test anyways.


+1000


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:21 am
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Try using the neck tilt adjustment, and alter the neck angle.
The pickups could be too close to the strings, and dropping them to the pickguard level might not be enough to stop the problem.

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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:51 am
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stratmangler wrote:
Try using the neck tilt adjustment, and alter the neck angle.
The pickups could be too close to the strings, and dropping them to the pickguard level might not be enough to stop the problem.



Neck tilt adjustment is only need if you can't adjust string action with saddle.
Pickups at pickguard level are in all case too far from the string.

Too many information are missing from the OP , no measurements...nothing.

I'm unscribe from the topic


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:11 am
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Well, we get the info bit by bit... :wink:

But doh! to me, I didn't remember a 72 Reissue has the Micro-Tilt (reissues usually don't) when I brought up the shimming. With the MT, it's even easier to test with the neck angle & pickup height after that, if the strings lay low over the body. TexSpecials are weird, and here we got three of them on a Tele...


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:34 am
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Texas Specials have staggered, pole pieces.
The strings affected are in close proximity to the raised middle poles.
Tilting the neck and raising the action might be beneficial.

It wouldn't take long to do, and is easily reversed if it's of no benefit.

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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:26 am
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Randy3521 wrote:
Problem: After rebuilding this guitar, there is significant irritating vibrato effect from the B, G & D string around the 12th to 18th fret. I've read somewhere that having the pickup height set to high can pull on the strings pulling them out of intonation and personally have witnessed this before. Having experienced this before I was able to fix the issue with pup adjustments .... The intonation has been checked, rechecked and triple checked.
I'm a little bit confused as to the problem.
I think it might be beneficial to define terms.
Vibrato - an oscillation in pitch
Are you saying the pitch warbles up and down?
Like wiggling a trem arm on a floating trem?
Or do you mean tremolo, pitch warbles in volume oscillations?
In either case it would not lead me to suspect an intonation issue.

Is it possible you are using the word vibrato but you actually means something else?
Is it some kind of vibration occurring somewhere else in the guitar that you are hearing?
If you have the ability to record the sound you are talking about and post it to Soundcloud, that might prove helpful.

Just to clarify, you're saying the phenomenon occurs when you are fretting only the strings noted and only in the range between those fret numbers.
Is that correct?
Doesn't happen on any other strings or at any other fretboard locations?
Also just to clarify, you are hearing this through an amplifier rather than just playing the guitar unplugged.
Is that correct?

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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:14 am
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I do apologize for not getting super techy-geeky before. It was my assumption we were all experienced techs/luthiers which was a mistake because you don't know me and I don't know you. I do hope we're all here to help each other... At a glance, I've been doing setups/mods & repair including amps since the 80's, professionally but mostly on my own with most customers by word of mouth. It's more of a hobby now and I typically do the work for free or trade-out as long as they pay for the hardware that I recommend, and I always recommend quality stuff. Those who begin snickering at the cost, I send them packing before they finish the sentence. When I say free, it's usually because they are friends or friends of friends and I never turn down a quality bottle of tequila or vodka as a tip for my service. :-)

Regarding the sound: It is in fact the "warbly" or "stratitis" effect and it occurs not just on the usual G string, but the B and D, but very lightly on the D. Mostly the G string...and around the 12th through 18th/19th fret. Yes that means fretted...

Neck Relief: It's sitting right at .010 and yes, I used a capo & feeler gauge...not rocket science here.

String Height: Well above requirements. Shouldn't have to go any further on this one. I like high action...

Amplified or Not: Apologies for not specifying this. When pickup height is set to suggested requirements, the warbly sound is in full effect on all pickups, amplified or not. When the pickups are dropped low and nearly flush with the pickguard, the warbly effect only occurs amplified.

Neck Tilt: The neck is set as it was since it was built by Fender. No shims needed, no adjustments needed. I will not install a shim or use the Tilt option when I know this has nothing to do with the neck angle. In my experience, shims typically aren't needed on OEM configurations. I've only needed them (but not all the time) on neck replacements, new bridge installs, ie., switching from hardtail to tremolo, Strat Tremolo to Floyd and so on...

Pickup Height: Starting off with the usual 3/32 and adjusting from there, I have moved them down to 3/8in which is (like I said before) darn near flush with the pickguard. At that level, you definitely lose volume which makes it all pointless. Even with sitting that far away there is a faint warbly/stratitis effect.

Pickup Staggered Poles: Hopefully you know the history of why Fender has this on some of their pup-sets. I have moved them up/down before with success. Although I don't recommend it, it has crossed my mind to move that G magnet down a bit. I think I'm going to refrain from doing that, for now. I repeat....for now! lol

Visual Inspection: Someone indicated you can never set things up based on visual. This is very debatable and I will have to disagree because once you've done something so many times, a person can very likely calibrate themselves. Many adjustments are made simply by ear as well, and each of us have our own tastes. There are many charts out there including those provided by the manufacturer, but they are more of a point of reference, a "suggested" area for quality performance. Beyond that is up to the Tech and Player. So we could debate this all year but I'd rather be doing other things. I would prefer we leave this one alone.

Changing String Gauges: Someone commented on the adjustments made to compensate this and again, I assumed we all understood we were above entry level DIY. Yes, I did in fact compensate the additional tension on the neck and string height for the larger diameter strings. There is zero issues here.

I was sick the last few days so nothing further was done. I am up and around now, therefore plan to dig deeper on this. My only 2 options (unless you good folks have any to suggest) is to swap the bridge saddles or, try a different set of pickups. I will likely swap saddles this weekend which I hate to do because I'll have to replace the strings AGAIN. I always swap strings when nut and bridge changes occur. That is just me...

Ok my friends...open to suggestions. I hope I answered everyone's questions.


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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:42 am
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As you've just said, it's Stratitis, which is what I suspected.
You need to lower the pickups.
If the pickups drop into the body you need longer screws.
If you use longer screws you'll possibly have to replace the rubber tubing.
If you adjust the pickups downwards and they just come to a stop before the Stratitis goes away you can take it all apart and make the routings a touch deeper.

Are the Texas Specials on plastic bobbins?
If yes, you could push the poles down a touch.

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Post subject: Re: Need Setup Help Please!
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:41 pm
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I'll agree with that stratitis diagnose, your "Amplified or Not" description would fit it just about perfectly.

And that means you need to get more distance between the pickups and the strings. It's of course up to you which of the repair options you choose.
Personally, if it's a situation where the pickups are as low as they go, I'd (micro)tilt the neck before routing the body, pushing polepieces etc; but that's just me...
And just a sidenote here; plenty of Fenders&Squiers have come straight from the factory with OEM shims... :wink:


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