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Post subject: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 9:20 am
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I'm doing a big check-up to my Telies from the late eighties and as it's my first time I've removed many parts to clean them up (bridge,saddles, pickguard...) and to check électronics.
Those guitars were, for personnal and professional reasons, put away and spent the last 4 years in the basement.
I started to check my 1988 American Standard and found that stay in the basement brought some oxydation (mostly on the frets that I've cleaned with steel wool 000 and 0000 -the fingerboard guards wasn't enough and the neck finish is lightly "matted" in some spots, no big deal -some fingerboards have more marks of wear done by playing- but next time I will put tape on it).
So as :
- I wasn't much aware of guitar set up. I think the guitar wasn't really set up when I bought it (look at the bridge is nothing to do with the recommended values by Fender - I don't know how to post a pic here :roll: ),
- I removed all the bridge and disasembled it to clean the oxydation. And wasn't aware the saddles haven't all the same ajustement screws. But thanx to docs found on the web and at fender.com, I delt with it measuring all the screws. But, I had to set the action + radius and intonation (roughly) to the recomended values to have a basic bridge set up before trying to go further in the set up process. I use this page for set up.
When it get to tune the neck relief I can't meet the recommended value by Fender at the 8th fret (.010"). The neck is too flat even with a totally loose trusrod (I'd like to post pics here too to show the neck when truss rod is fully tighter vs fully loosen, but still don't know how :()

I've tested the truss rod to make sure it's not broken and I've gone from fully tight to fully loose.
I stopped turning the screw when it started to block. Yes, something happened but I'm not sure the neck is heathly neither the trusrod. I find the range between tight and loose too short and the gap between the fretboard and the ruler I used really tiny.

I also think it's not normal to be at the end of the truss rod course to obtain almost the recommended value. This value should be somewhere in the "zero" (flat neck) and the left (loose) end of the truss rod course.

Strings are .009/.042, the set recommended for a "stock" set up.

I've got buzz on unfretted strings (mostly bass side) and rattles when I try to play a little harder, it's just awful with palm muting. I can't recall this guitar sounding like that, may be some rattles when playing quite hard but very very rare.

Any thoughts ?

What did I miss ? May be my comprehension of the set up page is wrong ?

Hope my english is understandable to explain a bit technical subject.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:22 pm
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Do yourself and your guitar a favour, stop what your doing, and take the guitar to an experienced professional.

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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:49 pm
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Alright, thanx. I will.
Untill then I'm'interessed in other thoughts regarding my questions.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 4:58 pm
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the Gent wrote:

Any thoughts ?

What did I miss ? May be my comprehension of the set up page is wrong ?

Hope my english is understandable to explain a bit technical subject.



Don't mess with the truss anymore if you don't know what you're doing.

"A set up is not a “repair” but rather an adjustment to a guitar’s neck, bridge, and nut for improved playability and tuning. More specifically, an adjustment to a guitar’s action (how high the strings are off of the fretboard), and intonation (how well a guitar holds it’s tuning all the way up and down the neck)."

Find a pro to do it.

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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:15 pm
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I agree that a thirty year old guitar deserves a setup by a good pro, especially after a retirement period.
And for you, Gent, maintaining a good setup is a lot easier than creating one.

But some notes:
The neck has probably taken a shape during the storage time (I assume that it wasn't under full string tension), and it may take a while before it bows back. And the Fender specs are just a recommendation.

A side remark here, a 1988 AmStd Tele should have the Bi-Flex truss rod - it can be just stiff from not being used, but it's best to let the pro do the check/adjust routines.

The buzz on open strings usually points to nut issues, and/or string height, but if you had the guitar in pieces, it's a bit harder to diagnose than usual. Anyways, I trust you put on new strings..?
But that buzz problem will also be taken care of at the pro setup.

And PS; bienvenue sur le forum. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 6:05 am
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Thanx all. I will get a pro to check my Telies, don't worrry mates.
Miami Mike wrote:
Don't mess with the truss anymore if you don't know what you're doing.

I know what I'm doing but there's no danger as I don't push too far when I have a doubt. So I will not go further than what I've done, just checking if things work or not and not trying to force anything, putting my guitar at risk.
jmattis wrote:
I agree that a thirty year old guitar deserves a setup by a good pro, especially after a retirement period.
And for you, Gent, maintaining a good setup is a lot easier than creating one.

You're right.
jmattis wrote:
But some notes:
The neck has probably taken a shape during the storage time (I assume that it wasn't under full string tension), and it may take a while before it bows back.

No, the guitar was stored tuned to pitch. So with full string tension and in its case.
jmattis wrote:
And the Fender specs are just a recommendation.

Got it.
jmattis wrote:
A side remark here, a 1988 AmStd Tele should have the Bi-Flex truss rod - it can be just stiff from not being used, but it's best to let the pro do the check/adjust routines.

:shock: Didn't know that and didn't find any specs or docs talking about that. If you have a link, doc...
jmattis wrote:
The buzz on open strings usually points to nut issues, and/or string height, but if you had the guitar in pieces, it's a bit harder to diagnose than usual. Anyways, I trust you put on new strings..?
But that buzz problem will also be taken care of at the pro setup.

Yes I'm aware about the nut but it is in pretty good shape, no big traces of wear.
No the guitar is reassembled. I've cleaned the bridge and put it back in place, set to fender recommendations regarding rough intonation and radius to have a starting point to adjust the neck relief. So, yes strings are in place and are .009/.042.

jmattis wrote:
And PS; bienvenue sur le forum. :wink:

Merci beaucoup pour l'accueil et les conseils.


Last edited by the Gent on Wed May 29, 2019 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 12:52 pm
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the Gent wrote:
jmattis wrote:
A side remark here, a 1988 AmStd Tele should have the Bi-Flex truss rod - it can be just stiff from not being used, but it's best to let the pro do the check/adjust routines.

:shock: Didn't know that and didn't find any specs or docs talking about that. If you have a link, doc...

I don't have any official source for that, and I wasn't yet ripe enough for a Tele in 1988...
But I've always thought/believed/understood the American Standard specs were the same from the introduction of the model (1988) to about the Millennium…

Well, I'm sure someone corrects me if I'm wrong (that happens…). Quick edit: And the guitar tech should know right away, when he/she/it gets the guitar for the setup.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 6:59 pm
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jmattis wrote:
I don't have any official source for that, and I wasn't yet ripe enough for a Tele in 1988...
But I've always thought/believed/understood the American Standard specs were the same from the introduction of the model (1988) to about the Millennium…

Well, I'm sure someone corrects me if I'm wrong (that happens…). Quick edit: And the guitar tech should know right away, when he/she/it gets the guitar for the setup.

We understood the same thing about AmStd specs.
I'll let you know as soon as I find out.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 12:31 am
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It has ticked me that people pay good money for 30 years of patina, particularly if it is original...and you cleaned it all off.

It is a difficult one though. I quite like old things looking old (assuming I'm not married to them - joke) but also like a good restoration. It is one of those tricky calls.

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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 6:50 am
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Is there a dark wood plug on the headstock, with a narrow hole that the wrench goes through? If so, it's a BiFlex. (There are 21st century exceptions where they used that plug with normal 1-way rods, but not back in '88.)

When you tighten a BiFlex, it works like any other rod -- the neck gets straighter.

But if you loosen it, first you'll feel the point where there's no tension on the adjuster and it turns freely. Keep loosening, and the front of the adjuster rams into the back of the walnut plug. Continue loosening, and it'll get stiff and harder to turn. And as you continue unscrewing it, it'll force relief into the neck.
----------------
I've never owned a BiFlex (and never will), so I don't know how the wrench feels as you unscrew the adjuster and mash it against the plug. I suspect it may not feel as smooth, and I don't know if it takes more force or less force to induce extra relief (compared to the amount of tightening torque it takes to reduce relief).
--------------
There have been cases where people unfamiliar with the BiFlex have broken the glue joint and popped the walnut plug loose. I don't know if those were poor glue joints, or if the people were just hamhanded. So do be cautious.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 7:23 am
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As for "why", wood is never completely stable. The resins slowly oxidize and crystalize, and the wood gets stiffer and harder over time.

(People mis-speak when they talk about old wood "drying out". The initial seasoning process brings lumber to equilibrium with atmospheric humidity -- after that, the wood's moisture content rises and falls as humidity changes; the reason many necks need truss adjustments in winter and summer. The resins harden due to chemical reactions.)

.009~.042 may have easily pulled enough relief into that neck 30 years ago, back when it was young and whippy. But now that the neck is stiff and stubborn, the strings may need some help from the BiFlex.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 8:35 am
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As for my "I'll never own a BiFlex" comment...

I've needed to remove adjuster nuts before. But I've never needed to add relief (I like .010~.052). So I dislike the captive adjuster on the BiFlex.

Simple as that, really.

It's a pretty brilliant design. Elegant simplicity. Take the traditional rod and add a wood plug and an internal sleeved anchor, secured with a screw under the 7th fret dot, and you've got the sound of a traditional rod with added functionality when/if needed.

Double rod systems sound different. They add mass to the neck, and float within the neck rather than being anchored at both ends. And require a different style of channel routed into the neck. And they cost more.

The BiFlex is installed with the same tooling and jigs as their traditional rods. Just adds pennies to production cost. And under the typical condition of needing to be tightened to reduce relief, it produces the exact same bending and compressive forces as a traditional rod.

I'm sure Leo would be impressed and delighted, and wonder why he didn't think of that.

I'm just a troglodyte who's satsified with heel-adjust 21-fret necks.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 am
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Folks make too much of a fuss about adjusting a vintage truss rod.
It's easy, and you don't need to detune the guitar. Just put a capo on the first fret, turn the guitar over and undo the screws, remove the neck plate and screws, turn guitar over and lift the neck at the headstock end.
Adjust truss rod, and place the butt end of the neck back in the neck pocket, and apply pressure at the headstock end.
Make sure that the strings are not fouling something they shouldn't be, and flip guitar over again.
The guitar should be pretty well in tune, needing only minor adjustment.

It really isn't a big deal removing the neck screws while the guitar is tuned to pitch.
Refit neckplate and screws.

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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:17 am
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John Sims wrote:
It has ticked me that people pay good money for 30 years of patina, particularly if it is original...and you cleaned it all off.

It is a difficult one though. I quite like old things looking old (assuming I'm not married to them - joke) but also like a good restoration. It is one of those tricky calls.

:mrgreen: You're right about marriage.
I didn't clean much on that guitar. It's pretty much new. I only removed the oxydation on the frets and a bit of it on the bridge screws and springs (not all of it because it's not possible). So this baby is still vintage even if it looks as new. That guitar wasn't too much played.


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Post subject: Re: Amolst 30 years old is worth a big maintenance operation
Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:37 am
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strayedstrater wrote:
Is there a dark wood plug on the headstock, with a narrow hole that the wrench goes through? If so, it's a BiFlex. (There are 21st century exceptions where they used that plug with normal 1-way rods, but not back in '88.)

Yes, the walnut plug seems to be there as you can see here Image
I asked fender support and this is the answer :
As far as the truss rod goes I wouldn't have spec on instruments produced before 1993 by serial so I couldn't pull up a bill of materials. Asking around though the general consensus is that at that time it wouldn't have been a bi-flex truss rod.
Quite confusing as the plug is there and the trussrod feels to act like you described.
strayedstrater wrote:
When you tighten a BiFlex, it works like any other rod -- the neck gets straighter.

But if you loosen it, first you'll feel the point where there's no tension on the adjuster and it turns freely. Keep loosening, and the front of the adjuster rams into the back of the walnut plug. Continue loosening, and it'll get stiff and harder to turn. And as you continue unscrewing it, it'll force relief into the neck.
----------------
I've never owned a BiFlex (and never will), so I don't know how the wrench feels as you unscrew the adjuster and mash it against the plug. I suspect it may not feel as smooth, and I don't know if it takes more force or less force to induce extra relief (compared to the amount of tightening torque it takes to reduce relief).
--------------
There have been cases where people unfamiliar with the BiFlex have broken the glue joint and popped the walnut plug loose. I don't know if those were poor glue joints, or if the people were just hamhanded. So do be cautious.

Alright thanx for that explanation and the following ones.


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