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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:16 am
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Early MIM Teles did have toploader bridges, minipots, and the rectangle switch.
Thanks, Strayed

I stand corrected, didn't realize there were/are MiM models that aren't string through.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:22 am
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sfceric64 wrote:
Quote:
Early MIM Teles did have toploader bridges, minipots, and the rectangle switch.
Thanks, Strayed

I stand corrected, didn't realize there were/are MiM models that aren't string through.


The toploader has left me with something of a quandary:-

The guitar is currently strung with 010's where as I favour 009's.

The issue is the break over on the saddle is very little and I think the reduced tension on 009s may result in the saddles bouncing. I already have issues as, because these are off set barrel type individual saddles, you can end up with one of the height screws floating if you don't get the adjustment just right.

As the neck is shimmed with a patent Fender business card shim I am considering re shimming with a full maple veneer wedge which could then give me more height (and more break over) on the saddles.

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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:39 pm
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John Sims wrote:
As the neck is shimmed with a patent Fender business card shim I am considering re shimming with a full maple veneer wedge which could then give me more height (and more break over) on the saddles.

I'll second that motion - shimming used to be the SOP with setups and string break angles. Nowadays everybody seems to think adjusting the truss rod is the omnisolution.

John Sims wrote:
Funny how folky types (in the UK at least) see a Tele as being more traditional and old style than a Strat. A Strat is all a bit Rock God and posey when a Tele is more conservative.

Maybe the posse you hang out with. But, Teles - along with Jags, Mustangs and yes, even Jazzmasters, are considered moderner, rebelliouser and snatcheder than Strats. Punk, indie, whatever - I'm delighted to see&hear young persons playing those.

BTW, it's a nice looking Tele you got there. (Get the hint?) :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:02 pm
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Tele's are kind of shaped like a dreadnought with a cutaway. And flat topped.

Strats are swoopy, curvy, contoured. Like a spaceship. A complete break from any acoustic traditions.

Plus, folkies still haven't entirely forgiven Dylan for playing a Strat at the Newport Folk Festival. They didn't even notice Bloomfield standing next to him with a Tele.
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I'd try a set of .009s before changing the shim. Even on string-through 6-saddle bridges, uneven saddle height screws can be an issue.

I've had the screws buzz on string-through Strats with .010s -- the middle 4 saddles can be problematic because of the lateral pressure from the other saddles.

While most people are dismissive of top-loaders, they have a lot of dedicated, fervent fans. The reduced break-angle gives a slinkier feel and an airier tone.

Give it a really good chance to shine before you try to force it to be more like a string-through.

Unless you use really expensive coated strings or something, possibly wasting a set of .009s isn't a big deal.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:51 pm
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I really like my 83 standard w/ top loader and the L shaped saddles. I tried 09's but they were way to slinky feeling to me and I'm a pretty weak bender. The 10's are just right to me, good bendability with a little lesser tension than a through body. Our saddle feet and screws differ quite a bit and its the only tele I have experience with so I dont have an opinion on yours other than if you've raised them as high as possible and still aren't happy w/ the break angle than shimming/micro-tilt is the way to go.

If you end up shimming, it's easy to test thickness directly under the saddles w/ loose strings instead of back and forth w/ the neck on and off. May save you ten or twenty minutes.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:37 am
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My rule of thumb with shims is 1:3 - a 1 mm shim (height difference from end to end) makes about 3 mm difference at the bridge. That's usually close enough for the saddles adjustment limits.

Regarding the need of a shim in general, I believe a steep angle and thus sufficient downforce at the saddles gives better sound, longer sustain, sunny days and butterflies. I have no measurements or tests to back that up, it's just an opinion I picked up many moons ago (Buchanan e.a.). YMMV.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:56 am
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jmattis wrote:

.....BTW, it's a nice looking Tele you got there. (Get the hint?) :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:03 am
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Indeed, break-angle affects tone, sustain, and feel. But "better" is a subjective personal opinion.

On Les Pauls, most players screw the tailpiece down as far as they can for maximum break-angle. But Duane Allman, Billy Gibbons, many others top-wrap the strings over the tailpiece to reduce break-angle without having to raise the tailpiece way up high.

In '58, Leo redesigned the Tele bridge to top-load. It wasn't well received and in '59 they went back to string-through.

'58 Teles sell for much less than other pre-CBS Fenders, because of the top-loader. People who buy them are either serious collectors who just want a complete collection of everything Leo built, or people who want something vintage without paying full price. ('58s are still expensive, but for most people saving a couple of grand is significant.)

A lot of people who buy them just because they're less expensive fall in love with them. They do sound and feel different than string-throughs.
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I'm not saying you shouldn't shim for increased break-angle. I'm just saying you should give the reduced break-angle a fair chance.

Slap a set of .009s on it and give it a perfect setup. Live with it for a while.

Then shim it and give it another perfect setup.

You may very well prefer it with the shim. But there's a real chance you'll like it better with the shallower break-angle.

If you shim it before switching to .009s just because there might be setup issues, you'll never really know.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:24 am
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As the neck is shimmed with a strip of card I am pretty set on installing a full contact maple wedge either way. While at it it seems fair just to tweak it a bit more but I will see how I do.

I am continuing to fight with the 010's. I am finding that I like the tone and snap. Changing to 009s just because it is easier to bend seems like a wus thing to do in many respects.

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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:29 pm
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Great pics, she certainly looks at home w/ the Strats.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:53 am
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After a couple of weeks or so with the wee beastie I find myself with something of a dilemma.

The guitar plays great, now that I have set it up, is electrically perfect as use has cleaned the pots and is generally a very sweet instrument. A bit heavy perhaps but then istn't that a Tele thing generally. All my favourite Strats are light, even for Strats.

I have stuck with the 10's and am tempted to perhaps even use them else where now that I am used to them.

So what is the issue? Well it is because of what it is. It is such a good example of an early MiM Tele that I am afraid of damaging it. In an ideal world I would probably by another "using" Tele and add this to my wall guitars but I can't really afford, or justify, another guitar without getting one sold. Or I could sell this one so that it is no longer my responsibility.

I am reasonably sure I could make money on it as it was a cheap buy, badly strung, had a missing saddle screw, not set up, and had a missing switch tip, but I think I would regret letting it go. It is my Morris Minor guitar and you don't get many of them in a life time.

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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:49 am
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While I wasn't in favor of irreversible mods, I'm totally in favor of playing the snot out of her.

She was born to make music, and she's been denied that joy for decades. She's been waiting for someone like you to fulfill her.

She's a piece of history, but she doesn't belong in a museum.

And a few dings or scuffs are charming. The scars on my body all tell a story -- I've grown kind of fond of them.

Plus, the thick polyester from that era is well-nigh indestructable. It's entirely possible you could play her as much as you want with no visible signs.

My first Strat had vintage small frets, and it was the only guitar I owned at that time. I played that guitar hours every day and after 7 years the frets were just on the verge of needing a light levelling. Since you spread your playing over several guitars, her frets may last decades.

Play her. Make her and yourself happy. Don't worry about scratches, dings, chips. An old guitar in perfect condition is an amazing find, but there's a hint of sadness in it. It's just been existing, not living.

Like the little vampire girl in "Interview With the Vampire" who resented being trapped in a perfect immortal chid's body, denied the joys and tribulations of growing up.
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You know, Rory Gallgher's unburst, Clapton's Blackie, SRV's #1 are each worth more than any mint condition pre-CBS Strat.

I'm not sure what stage of life you're in or what your aspirations are, but who knows? Maybe someday you and that Tele will be legendary, and the Fender Custom Shop will lovingly and painstakingly recreate every dent, ding, and scratch you put on her.


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:41 am
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strayedstrater wrote:

...I'm not sure what stage of life you're in or what your aspirations are, but who knows? Maybe someday you and that Tele will be legendary, and the Fender Custom Shop will lovingly and painstakingly recreate every dent, ding, and scratch you put on her.


I'm thinking that horse bolted years ago but thanks for the though ;-)

I would probably have given exactly the same advice as your good self but it is different when you are the one sitting there :-)

I also agree that old poly is almost bullet proof but I am nervous of Lake Placid as I have see it coming off in great slabs on some guitars.

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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:19 am
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Yes, it's easy to give advice when I don't have any emotional or financial stake in someone else's guitar.

But if you sell her for a minor profit, she'll still be an inexpensive guitar. Probably go to some kid or someone who wants a beater. Someone who won't think of "history", who'll toss her in the boot of their car, prop her in the corner of their flat, slap rude stickers on her, carve their name into her flank.

Sometimes a lonely neglected guitar is lucky enough to find someone who'll give her the love she's always longed for. You can be that man -- don't abandon her.
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Yeah, I know it's really just an unfeeling hunk of wood, plastic, and metal. It doesn't care if you sell it to someone who just wants a cheap guitar to smash at the end of a big show.

But imagine how you'd feel if you go to that show. Guy straps it on for the encore, then takes it off and goes full Townshend/Hendrix on it. You'd wish you kept it and had enjoyed playing it, even if the paint peeled...


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Post subject: Re: Did I buy a lemon?
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:16 am
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First toy bought and what a task it was.

(when it arrives) I have managed to find a 3 screw top loader plate to take three twin string saddles. I was after a vintage ash tray plate design but came up short. This will still allow me to use traditional two string saddles so that I don't get the issues of the individual off set saddles floating on one of their legs.

I can also measure the off sets on the original saddles to custom compensate some new brass saddle bars so should be a reasonable non destructive mod and I can still return the little beast to its original configuration. I will keep the original bridge plate and saddles safe for reinstatement should I so desire in the future.

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