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Post subject: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 mm
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:41 am
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Hi All!

Could you please help me re a neck relief question.
I have a Mim Fender Telecaster. I am trying to adjust the neck relief: capo on 1st fret + low E string pressed down at the last fret. I am using a feeler gauge and I managed to get the neck relief down to 0.25 mm which is what Fender recommends. So far so good, yay!
Now to my question: the truss rod is now maxed out at 0.25 mm neck relief. This is as far it goes. I am scared that over time, if the neck bends more, then I will not be able to straighten it by tightening the truss rod as it is max'ed out.
How far would, tightening the truss rod go in terms of mm? Would it not suppose to actually go as far as creating a back bow?
The guitar is still under warranty so would be good to know if this is normal or if I should send it back to Fender for replacement/repair.

Many thanks for your help


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:56 pm
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Ordinarily, with the strings off and the truss rod completely loose, the neck should be pretty close to flat, maybe just a bit of relief.
The truss rod should be able to induce some back-bow.

The problem is, if you submit for a warranty claim, since it is within spec, the response will most likely be that it is functioning properly.

Are you using heavy gauge strings?

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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:53 am
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Hi Rich,

Many thanks for your reply.
I am using very light strings, they are 8s! Haha.
So it just doesn't make sense why tightening the truss rod would not produce a smaller neck relief.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:24 am
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sz.matty88 wrote:
The guitar is still under warranty

On a .008 string set, the neck should come real close to straight - even with just the slack off the truss rod.
Are you sure you're turning it the right way?
Anyways, no reason to try different tricks on the neck yourself - utilize the warranty and have the shop check the neck and truss rod functionality.

BTW, all my own guitars have very little relief, so to me that spec of 0,25 mm (.010") sounds huge.
Anyways, using specs to refuse a warranty claim sounds far fetched - a truss rod should work, period.
Quote:
Note: These are minimum specifications that are meant as a guide; they should not be construed as hard and fast rules, as we realize that every player's subjective requirements often differ.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:32 am
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Hi jmattis,

Thank you for your reply. I agree with you re specs just being rough guides.
The spec should not be the limit of how far the truss rod goes. If the neck gets a bit more bow in it, there will be no way of me getting that any straighter. I will definitely send it to Fender for them to repair/replace.
Good point re the correct way of turning the truss rod. I am doing this correctly, following a video posted by Fender re how to adjust neck relief.
Again, thanks jmattis!


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:44 am
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It may take 24 hours before neck move at is maximum or stop to move.
Turn truss rod 1/4 turn , wait 1 hour and take new reading and turn 1/4 turn if needed.
Keep strings in tune.

Feeler gauge under the string is not accurate. feeler gauge may push string and making false reading.
I use straight edge from Stew mac

I have done lots of truss rod adjustment and once I replace a truss rod.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:50 am
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Thanks stratele52.

Very useful information. However, I've gave it more than 48 hours and it's still at 0.25 mm. That is the maximum it will go. The truss rod got to a point where it is hard to turn and would not force it as it will definitely strip.
I've made sure that the feeler gauge isn't pushing the low E string. It easily slides in with a bit of space between the fret and string. Something is definitely not right.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:58 am
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sz.matty88 wrote:
Thanks stratele52.

Very useful information. However, I've gave it more than 48 hours and it's still at 0.25 mm. That is the maximum it will go. The truss rod got to a point where it is hard to turn and would not force it as it will definitely strip.
I've made sure that the feeler gauge isn't pushing the low E string. It easily slides in with a bit of space between the fret and string. Something is definitely not right.


Truss rod work with pressure, it may be "hard" * to turn, that is why you should turn not more a quarter. Using the right tool and a quality tool . Allen wrench wich should fit tight. If not , don't use it

* with experience, you know if it normal or not .
If it is not , return guitar on warranty


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:40 am
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I read all the time about necks taking time to move but it has never once happened to me on any guitar I have ever owned or worked on.
If there is any movement afterward it must be less than a thousandth because I don’t notice it.
Maybe I’ve just been fortunate to always have rods that actually work.


How does your truss rod feel when you adjust it?
Does it move freely or does it feel like it might be seized?
When you back it off does the relief increase?

The first thing to do is to verify the rod is functioning.

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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:52 am
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Sometimes I find neck move very fast, sometimes not.

For a beginner with no experience, IMO it is better to write neck may take time to move.
More chance to do a good job and less chance to break a truss rod.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:32 am
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The truss rod turns surprisingly easily if I am slacking it.
It does move freely, but in lack of a better word, feels somewhat weak.
When I back it off, the relief increases but it takes more than a full turn for it to actually do something. What I've read is that a quarter turn should already make a noticeable difference.




BMW-KTM wrote:
I read all the time about necks taking time to move but it has never once happened to me on any guitar I have ever owned or worked on.
If there is any movement afterward it must be less than a thousandth because I don’t notice it.
Maybe I’ve just been fortunate to always have rods that actually work.


How does your truss rod feel when you adjust it?
Does it move freely or does it feel like it might be seized?
When you back it off does the relief increase?

The first thing to do is to verify the rod is functioning.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:41 am
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sz.matty88 wrote:
The truss rod turns surprisingly easily if I am slacking it.

Normal

It does move freely, but in lack of a better word, feels somewhat weak.
No, it look normal

When I back it off, the relief increases but it takes more than a full turn for it to actually do something.
Could be right, it is a case by case

What I've read is that a quarter turn should already make a noticeable difference.

Wrong , it is a case by case.
It is only a good way to start with a unknow truss rod or if you are a beginner




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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:56 pm
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MIM Stds have traditional single-action rods. Applying tension to the rod (tightening the adjuster) counteracts the string tension and pulls less relief into the neck.

But when you loosen the adjuster, the only force pulling more relief into the neck is the string tension.

.008 sets have very low tension. (Obviously.) So they don't pull up very hard on the neck. Maple is a very stiff wood, so loosening the adjuster with .008 strings is one of the situations where the change in relief is likely to be slow, and probably minimal.
-------------------
How experienced are you? When tightening a truss rod adjuster it starts out easy, then the torque required rises steeply. And continues to rise. If you haven't adjusted many rods, it's entirely possible there's lots of adjustment range left.

I once had a neck that ran out of adjustment range. The hard stop when you run out of screw thread is a pretty unmistakable feeling. Not "oh, this is starting to scare me" but "OH CRAP IT HIT THE END OF THE THREAD".

I added adjustment range by unscrewing the nut completely and adding a couple of washers. So even if your rod has run out of adjustment range it's a pretty simple fix.

It's not super common, but it does happen. Fender even sells the washers. (Available from Guitar Parts Resource, among others.) It happens to Gibsons too, with the same fix. It usually happens slowly over years and many adjustments, and would be particularly unusual and somewhat worrisome on a brand new neck.
-----------------
With the possibility that there's nothing wrong and you just need to twist harder, and the possibility that there is something wrong, I'd have an experienced Fender Authorized tech evaluate it. (Not one of the hack "techs" at Guitar Center.)


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:52 pm
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I've fiddled with truss rods over the years. I've had normal, bi-flex, and 12 string types. A quarter turn or even much less always made a noticeable difference. Something doesn't seem right that you can't take out all relief (flat) or create back bow (don't do that). The neck will always change with age, weather and different string types. If under warranty, get it checked out and maybe replaced. You shouldn't have to put up with that on a new guitar.


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Post subject: Re: Truss rod max'ed out and neck relief is barely at 0.25 m
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:50 pm
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Hi, SZ,
First off, throw away your capo and feeler gauges.
They are not needed.

Fender only recommends this silly method for truss rod adjustment because recommending a subjective approach using your eyes, hands and ears to determine the proper adjustment, would not provide adequate guidance to the public at large for consistent results.
By providing the capo and feeler gauge method, Fender can claim to have provided an objective method for adjusting their guitars.

Now, with the strings tuned, sight down each side of the neck and determine if the edges of your neck are straight, bowed back, or bowed forward.

If your truss rod is maxed out on a new guitar, and you haven't damaged the neck or truss rod by over tightening, my bet is that you will find that the neck is bowed back.
It was probably bowed backward immediately after putting .08s on your guitar, BEFORE you began to adjust it.

Assuming that your neck is bowed back, release the truss rod enough until the neck is straight with the strings in tune.
After any truss rod adjustment, bend the neck back and forth to "seat" the adjustment.
This will give you instant adjustment results that should remain stable.

Adjust the guitar until the neck is "straight" by sighting down each side of the neck from the base of the guitar.
Now adjust the bridge saddles if necessary to a desired string height.

With the neck "straight," adjust your bridge saddles, following the crown curvature, or "radius" of the neck.
Adjust the bridge saddles down to where you just begin to get a little fret buzz at the first or second fret at the top of the neck.
Check each string for fret buzz at each fret.

Now back off the truss rod about 1/4 turn.
Bend the neck forward and backward.
Next, sight down the neck to determine the amount of forward bow you may have added to the neck.
You want only the slightest forward bow, or "relief" if any.

If there is string buzz on one or more strings on one or more frets, adjust the bridge saddle(s) to eliminate the buzz.
If the string height (or bridge saddle height) is getting too high, put a little relief into the neck with the truss rod with 1/4 - 1/2 counter-clockwise turn.

String height is primarily adjusted at the bridge saddle.
However, fine tuning string height often involves a truss rod adjustment.
It is up to you to learn how to balance the interplay between saddle height and relief.

Finally check your intonation.
With a tape measure, on the High "E" string, you may wish to measure from the bottom of the nut to the contact point at the bridge saddle.
This procedure is optional on a new guitar.
The High E string should measure 25.5" from contact point - to - contact point.

Tune your strings.
Now check the tuning of your strings at the 12th fret, depressing each string at the 12th fret.
If the note at the 12th fret is higher than the open string note, the length of the string is too short.
Lengthen the string by moving string saddle back further, away from the pickups.
If the note at the 12th fret is lower than the open string note, move the string saddle forward, toward the pickups.

After each intonation adjustment at the bridge saddle, retune the string.
Test both open string and 12th fret tuning again.
Adjust; retune; and retest as necessary until each string is tuned the same when played open and at the 12th fret.

Now your guitar should be properly set up.
Play it for a little while and determine if further adjustment is necessary.

As you continue to experiment with your guitar, and learn the feeling and the various issues that you may encounter, you will wonder why you ever attempted to adjust your guitar with a capo and feeler gauge.

Once you are satisfied with the action and playability of the guitar, without fret buzz, if you should you begin to experience fret buzz, or if the action gets too high, it means that your neck has moved due to environmental conditions.

Adjust the truss rod in 1/4 turns, bending the neck back and forth after each adjustment.
As always, fine tuning a guitar often requires a combination of saddle string height adjustment and truss rod adjustment.
But once you get the string height correct, normally only a truss rod adjustment is necessary to maintain your guitar and correct changes that may be affecting your neck.

When adjustment returns the guitar to being playable once again, you are done.


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