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Post subject: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:17 pm
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Hey guys, i am not able to bend the high e and b strings a whole step past the 12 fret unless my action height is around 6/64ths.

I am trying to follow what fenders setup suggestions are and they should be around 4/64ths at the 17th fret. but if i leave it there i am not able to bend up without it cutting out.

Thoughts?


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:00 pm
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4/64 is pretty low and is a generic starting point.
A Vintage 58 is going to have a 7.25" radius, which is a little tight for action that low, especially if you play with a lot of bends.
Remember, you are bending across the radius, but your anchor point at the bridge remains "correct" for the edge of the neck.
If it plays well at 6/64 and you are able to get full-step (or even 2-step) bends, you're doing very well.

At the 12th fret:
Robert Cray played 7/64 on the high E and 8/64 on the bass side.
SRV and Eric Johnson run 5/64

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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:11 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
but your anchor point at the bridge remains "correct" for the edge of the neck.


hey there, thanks for the info. much appreciated. could you explain what you mean by this statement though. I'm not quite following what your saying.

thanks in advance.


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:09 pm
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Image

This is a cross-section of your neck.
When you bend a string, the string moves up and over the radius along the fret, but since the bridge doesn't move, that end of the string remains at the same height. This means that as you pull the string across the neck, the string gets closer to the higher frets the farther you push.
The action depicted is extremely high.
Lowering those strings would cause the interference to happen with less bend, which is what you are encountering.
There are two solutions... higher action, or a flatter radius on the fingerboard. 9.5 is common on MIA/MIM Standards, 12 is not uncommon, and many "shredder" guitars are even flatter at 14 or more.

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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:19 am
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Hi, Have had the problem of strings fretting out whilst bending aove 12th fret with low action. Issue was resolved by adjusting neck angle. Check that with action of 4/64 inch at 17th fret (or any desired action) should not be lower than action at 12th fret or higher than action at 21st or 22nd fret. Neck relief should be .012 inch. If the strings are sloping down towards the end of the fret board then the neck needs to be shimmed at the front of the pocket to achieve more clearance. Try shim about 1/4 x 1 3/4 cut from a credit card to start with. This should angle the neck down towards the last fret. No mods to guitar needed, just loosen neck mount screws and slide shim under neck, then retighten screws, set action (bridge adjustment), retune and re-intonate as needed. Hope it works as well for you as it did for me.
Ross


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:46 am
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Action must be read with a capo on first steel fret.


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:29 am
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One thing that's not yet mentioned (except maybe between the lines on CB91710's higher action/flatter fingerboard comment): putting "fallaway" on the neck - that's a partial fretjob where the higher frets (12th & up) are shaved to lower, just a bit and gradually, towards the body. For best results, that should be done in combination with "flattening the radius" with the saddles.
And test what kind of relief works best for your play/bend style.
But: for Buchanan-esque bends, action needs to be higher than Fender specs.

stratele52 wrote:
Action must be read with a capo on first steel fret.

Not if we follow the Fender instructions; 17th fret, no capo. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:30 am
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jmattis wrote:

stratele52 wrote:
Action must be read with a capo on first steel fret.

Not if we follow the Fender instructions; 17th fret, no capo. :wink:



It is write ; do not use capo ? Come on.

We should always use capot because no nut are same.


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:15 pm
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Fender usually tells us to use a capo when it's needed... but you won't find it in the web setup guide's ACTION section - nor in any Fender/Squier owner's guide I know. (I remember action measuring pics without a capo, though...)
Plus, you don't measure action before the nut is perfect, do you?
:lol:

But that's just some tongue-in-cheek web babble - sorry, but it's Friday...
So to be serious: The way one measures action doesn't really matter, as long as we know how it's measured so the results are comparable. (That's why with Fenders, I recommend to use the Fender setup guide way.)
And I'd guess most of those who do setups use different ways with different guitars.


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:01 pm
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There is no perfect nut as there is no perfect action, it is a matter of taste. That is why we should by pass nut with capo.

When we talk about action is, we should take reading the same way . If not, we speak two different language and we can't understand each other.

I rarely see ( never ? ) guitar manufacturer set-up instructions telling everything ( at 100 % ) you must do or know.


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:26 pm
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I don't measure string height.
That is because I don't believe that measurement is either fool-proof, or necessary for obtaining the lowest possible action without fret buzz.
It makes me laugh to think about SRV sitting around, measuring his string height at the 12th fret!! :lol: So I have no comment about string height measurements, which seems to be dominating this thread.

But what seems amazing to me is that no one has mentioned the obvious first question.
What string gauge are you using?
Obviously, you cannot use less than .10 strings on a guitar with a 7.25 radius neck.
If you are using .10 strings and are having this problem; a problem that I don't have with my AV '52 Tele, you may want to try .11s which would almost certainly resolve the problem, in my opinion.

BossRoss wrote:
...If the strings are sloping down towards the end of the fret board then the neck needs to be shimmed at the front of the pocket to achieve more clearance. Try shim about 1/4 x 1 3/4 cut from a credit card to start with. This should angle the neck down towards the last fret. No mods to guitar needed, just loosen neck mount screws and slide shim under neck, then retighten screws, set action (bridge adjustment), retune and re-intonate as needed. Hope it works as well for you as it did for me.

While BossRoss may have been lucky, using a credit card as a shim, my experience with shimming necks is that a very thin shim can cause a significant change in neck geometry.
I therefore would not suggest simply using a credit card as a shim, were you to try this experiment.

I recommend using strips of masking tape as a shim.
This allows for excellent adjustability during the trial and error process of determining how many masking tape shims to use.
Loosen the strings and clamp the strings to the neck at about the 12th fret with a capo, or use masking tape.
This allows you to remove the neck without removing the strings.

When shimming a neck forward, I shim the neck just above the top screw holes, as shown in this picture.

Image

Put one small piece of masking tape on the neck as shown above, replace the neck and tune, and try the guitar.
Repeat this as needed.
The neck above required three (3) strips of tape for the proper geometry in an after market body.
But believe me, one (1) strip of masking tape makes a significant change in neck geometry.
Therefore, trial and error is required.
It will also require the bridge saddles to be lowered and intonation to be checked.


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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:35 pm
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My '78 Strat did the same thing. I strapped it to my bicycle and rode from Whittier to the Fender warranty repair shop in Fullerton. The guy spent a few minutes playing my guitar, raised the strings a bit, and told me not to let anyone claim they could improve that neck.

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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:04 pm
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Just so I understand ...

A tech guy ...
at the Fender shop in Fullerton ....
took one look at your ‘78 and deduced it was pointless so he raised the action and called it a day and left you with the impression that’s all life has to offer you in this guitar.

Does that about sum it up?

When was this?

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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:47 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Just so I understand ...

A tech guy ...
at the Fender shop in Fullerton ....
took one look at your ‘78 and deduced it was pointless so he raised the action and called it a day and left you with the impression that’s all life has to offer you in this guitar.

Does that about sum it up?

When was this?

Pretty much.
It was my relatively new '78 (less than a year old) in '78 or early '79, this was the large CBS (Fender/Rodgers/Rhodes) complex on Valencia and Raymond... repair shop was separate, right on Raymond.

7.5 radius, it is indeed possible that I was simply trying to run the action too low.
I was 15 or 16, didn't know anything about "proper" or ideal setup numbers, and my idea of "adjusting the action" was to drop it until it buzzed and then raise it "just enough"

It may indeed have had a high fret, and today I would know what to look for, but I honestly don't remember there being a difference in how it played, there indeed was nothing wrong with it (and I've been kicking myself for over 35 years for getting rid of that guitar)

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Post subject: Re: Action Height Question on an American Vintage 58
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:41 am
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stratele52 wrote:
Action must be read with a capo on first steel fret.


Surely you mean truss rod right?


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