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Post subject: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:39 pm
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Hi,

I've had my Mexican classic 50s tele for a couple of years now. I've never attempted a truss rod adjustment myself, until now. I really want to learn how to do this.

Especially since my guitar's neck showed signs of back bow I thought it was time to take a look at it.

The adjustment though, doesn't seem to be doing anything... The neck desperately needs relief, but 4 full turns did nothing. The .010 gauge feeler is still pushing up the string at the 8th fret. This can't be normal.

I've been very careful with this guitar, I've done everything by the book, with quarter turn adjustments, to no avail. This really seems to be the hardware... I think there could be a problem with the mechanism. I sincerely hope the truss rod isn't broken. Not sure if it would need relief when it were broken though?

Is there anyone who can help out, please? What can this be?

If you take a look at the pictures you'll see that the bolt at the neck's heel does come out, too much even, but to no effect in the neck relief. The strings are still kissing the frets. What gives?

I feel little to no resistance when turning the truss rod. I only left on the low E-string and removed the pickup for easy access.

Is it safe to remove the nut to look for any visible defects inside?

Thanks

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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:02 am
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The idiot test (no offence, but that's the common term): which way are you turning the truss rod nut?

Putting this very simply, string tension pulls the neck (headstock upwards), and this curving is controlled with the truss rod counter force; tightening it straightens the neck. Loosening the truss rod lets the neck settle to a position the string pull determines.

You have the vintage, one way truss rod which can't correct a back bow, if the string pull isn't enough. Thicker gauge strings could help, or in some cases a fret job. But wood is wood; if a neck is prone to bend/warp, a new neck often is the easiest, fastest & cheapest cure.

In general, it's not a shame to use a pro - a yearly check & setup is a guarantee a guitar is always in top condition. Truss rods can be broken, so maybe consult your tech again, at least for evaluating the problem.

And BTW, some of us like little or no relief...


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:07 am
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Hi and thanks so much for your reply.

Well, the reason why I wanted to adjust the truss rod is because I measured the relief at the 8th fret (with a capo on the 1st and the string down on the 17th). The gap, measured with a .010 feeler gauge, appeared to be to small wich is why I tried to loosen the truss rod with a "lefty loosy" quarter turn. I eventually ended up turning all the way down. This didn't do anything to get more relief on the neck. I then tried tightening the truss rod and low and behold, the 4th fret started to cause buzzing. Which suggests the truss rod isn't defective. I already thought it wasn't normal for the adjustment nut to be protruding that much.

There are however some problems with the frets. They appear to be very uneven, even with the naked eye. To determine if it's the neck or the frets, I've ordered a notched straightedge.

I do indeed prefer a lighter gauge of strings which could explain the slight back bow. Interesting to learn that the vintage type of truss rod isn't as effective. I've now installed a heavier set of strings which appears to be helping somewhat (less buzzing). However I'm missing my lighter gauge already. Not so much because of the playability but they just seem to have a different tone to them. Don't know how to explain it but I normally use 9-42. The now 10-46 gauge produces a sort of overtone that I don't really like. I've used the same gauge to re-string my Les Paul. The difference in volume is even more pronounced with the humbuckers. With the single coil pickups, the heavier gauge is somewhat acceptable and probably a welcome change for the guitar's neck (I know I can adjust the amp settings, but something about this gauge is just too different for my personal taste and playing style). I think the strings being new and heavier and the guitars having to adapt is another thing that I should give some time. I'm sure you're aware that it can take some time for new strings to fall into place.

All in all I think it does indeed boil down to what strings are on there and the frets being uneven. They say lighter strings wear them down a lot faster. Don't know if it's true but it would explain a lot. I can already spot some pitting in the metal on the higher end of the fingerboard.

Could very well be that I'll try to adapt to the heavier strings on the Telecaster, but in no case I'm going to use them with humbuckers anymore. I guess it takes some time to let the strings settle, after which I will definitely have a more conclusive opinion.

Thanks again for your response in any case. Knowing that this type of truss rod is more or less useless (if that is the right word), especially with lighter gauge strings, really eases my mind. I like this neck so much I wouldn't want to ever replace it.

Ps. Will definitely take it to a pro if necessary. I personally have no problems with little relief at all. I just want to make sure the guitar is setup the right way. I like this neck and the feel of it so much I'd rather not replace it. Probably will end up with a newer type of Tele to suit my preferences though.

Best regards
Kenneth


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:40 am
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I didn't mean to badmouth vintage style truss rods in any way, be those heel- or headstock adjusted. It's just that they work one-way, while Bi-Flex™, Dual-Action (etc.) work two ways.
Mind you, a very major part of truss rod support is needed in that one (against string pull) direction.

Otherwise, I'd recommend giving the guitar a full setup at a skilled pro. Your problems might not be truss rod related at all, and a pro will set the guitar up - with your preferences, that .009" set and all.

PS: String sets act differently on a Les Paul vs. a Tele. 24.75" vs 25.5" scale length, etc.


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:31 am
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Makes sense. Thanks. I've never doubted Fender quality. But I'm definitely going to consider having it done by a professional. I do want to learn though. I'd like to be able to care for my own guitars. But for now, dressing and re-crowning frets indeed seems a bit too ambitious for my inexperienced hands.
Cheers


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:45 pm
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No harm going back to where it was when you started.
Left= less relief
Right= more relief
W/O string tension- tuned to pitch, it is impossible to determine what is the right relief for you. Yes, its a PITA w/ heel adjust necks. One string(low E) is not enough tension to determine the final outcome but it will get you close sometimes. Try just removing the D&G if you feel you need to for ample room to the nut and slightly slack tuning the other strings, while making MINOR adjustments to the truss rod (1/8 - 1/4 turn at a time).
You mentioned .010 relief to start with, that's pretty decent for most situations. But said you had some fret buzz, adding a couple thousandths .012 might alleviate your issue, regardless I would stick w/ the strings you prefer to play with and go from there.

With adjustments, the neck w/ string tension may take a day or two to settle into place in extreme conditions.
Fine tuning is usually required after restringing, w/ just a slight turn or two w/ a half flatted string.

Plenty of Fender video's available to help.


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:18 am
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sfceric64 wrote:
Left= less relief
Right= more relief

Shouldn't that be exactly the opposite..? :roll:


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:39 am
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sfceric64 wrote:
No harm going back to where it was when you started.
Left= less relief
Right= more relief
W/O string tension- tuned to pitch, it is impossible to determine what is the right relief for you. Yes, its a PITA w/ heel adjust necks. One string(low E) is not enough tension to determine the final outcome but it will get you close sometimes. Try just removing the D&G if you feel you need to for ample room to the nut and slightly slack tuning the other strings, while making MINOR adjustments to the truss rod (1/8 - 1/4 turn at a time).
You mentioned .010 relief to start with, that's pretty decent for most situations. But said you had some fret buzz, adding a couple thousandths .012 might alleviate your issue, regardless I would stick w/ the strings you prefer to play with and go from there.

With adjustments, the neck w/ string tension may take a day or two to settle into place in extreme conditions.
Fine tuning is usually required after restringing, w/ just a slight turn or two w/ a half flatted string.

Plenty of Fender video's available to help.


Thanks for the tip, but I've tried measuring with all strings on and it's the same thing. Perhaps the new strings will make a difference.
Regards


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:53 am
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Man, there are so many confusing/contradictory things going on in this thread.

First the neck has a backbow. Then it turns out it had some relief, just something less than 0.10".

"The frets are visibly unlevel"? Does that mean worn with dents and divots? If it means that they look unlevel when sighting down the neck, that's a very deceptive way to examine frets. Any waviness of the fretboard edges can trick your eyes.

You say you've had the guitar for a couple of years -- was it new or used when you got it?

A thick neck with a particularly strong/stiff piece of maple can take a long time to let the strings pull more relief into it.

I'll add another vote to letting a pro check it out. (Not a Guitar Center professional hack.) Yes, you can learn to do your own setups and truss rod adjustments, and eventually you may be able to do a better job than a pro (because only you knows what works best and feels best for you).

But it's a lot easier to learn with a guitar that doesn't have existing issues that you can't diagnose clearly.


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:18 am
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Another confusing thing: you mention "pitting" on the frets at "the higher end of the neck".

Pitting refers to small holes made by corrosion ("pits"). The "higher end of the neck" is generally understood to be the part near the body (the higher notes, frets 17 to 21).

Fret wear happens where you play the most, usually frets 1 to 7.

I'm not trying to bust your balls. People use all sorts of confusing phrases, like people who call the fat wound E string the "high E string" because in playing position it's the one closest to their head and farthest from the floor.

But when troubleshooting and diagnosing it's very important that the people you're asking know exactly what you mean. Don't be afraid of using multiple descriptive phrases, like "higher end of the neck, up near the headstock".


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:31 am
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And after all that negativity, here's something positive you can do:

A common old trick is to "help" the neck adjust to relief changes. Hold the neck firmly at the neck joint (or clamp the neck joint between your knees) and then pull or push the headstock end of the neck in the direction you want to it to go.

The truss rod can bind in its channel and the wood resists slipping/sliding into place. A little pressure helps the neck adjust.

People with older Rickenbackers know that. With those you have to pull the neck into place and then adjust the dual rods to hold it where you set it. If you try to adjust those necks simply by tightening the rods you risk popping the fretboard off the neck.

(I realize you want more relief not less, but holding the neck heel and pushing on the back of the headstock will help the strings pull more relief into the neck.)


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:49 am
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jmattis wrote:
sfceric64 wrote:
Left= less relief
Right= more relief

Shouldn't that be exactly the opposite..? :roll:

Good catch it is exactly the opposite of what I said, my bad.

The op actions were a bit excessive initially, no harm done(since he was loosening the nut). Tighten the truss rod back to where it was at the start, retune to pitch and measure the relief. Then follow the Fender guide for truss rod adjustments from the video( about the 4 minute mark fro heel access adjustment).
3 full turns represents about 1/10 or .1 of an inch; slight adjustments to relief are measured in thousandths of an inch. Probably only needs about an 1/8 of a turn left under tension to get a relief increase of 2-4 thousandths depending on the neck.

Here's the Fender tutorial on youtube for truss rod adjustments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKtlsps4SqY&index=21&list=RDaD0d6yqWZ-g


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:07 am
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Hi and thanks for the replies.

I'm sorry if I've confused some of you with my terminology. English isn't my first language, so please excuse me for that. With pitting I do indeed mean the formation of dents where the strings hit the frets. The dents in the frets are indeed mostly visible on the lowest frets where the G, B and high E strings meet the metal.

Some frets do indeed look uneven, especially the 10th and 13th. I'm still waiting for a straightedge to be able to confirm.

Then for the good news. The newer strings have completely straightened the neck. The gap at the 8th fret, measured with a 0.010 feeler gauge and capo on 1st, is now perfect!

So indeed, the lighter strings (my preferred gauge) have been causing the back bow from too little tension.

I'm guessing the modern double action truss rods are indeed better for handling lighter strings and preventing back bows?

In your opinion what truss rod should I look for when buying a guitar in the future? A double action for lighter strings? I'm sure I'll never get tired of the 9-42 gauge. I know wood density matters too, but in general, are double action rods more effective?

As for this Telecaster, it was indeed new when I bought it, which was about 2 or 3 years ago. I play a lot but not every day. I really, really like the T-model, especially the vintage modified guitars. They produce a very specific tone that is almost impossible to replicate with any other model.

Hoping this information will lead to a definitive answer. For now I think the guitar's fine. Strings seem to do the trick. That said, I'm afraid the problem will recur should I change string gauge again. In that case, should I accept that the neck will always have back bow with that gauge, or should I leave this gauge for the sake of the wood, and perhaps look for a guitar with a double action rod to counteract the tension from lighter string gauges?

Thanks

Cheers


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:19 pm
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Ken88, I'm sorry -- I had no idea that English isn't your first language. Your writing is outstanding and better than many native English speakers. I now understand why some of phrasing is subtly different than your intended meaning.

A stiff, thick neck can take a long time to adjust to loosening the truss rod. You may find that your heavier strings will pull too much relief into the neck over time, and you'll need to tighten the rod a little to remove relief.

If that happens you'll almost certainly be able to go back to your preferred lighter gauge strings.

Keep in mind that humidity and temperature affect truss rod adjustments. Some necks are very stable, but some need adjustments several times a year. If you're going through a period of unusual weather it's very possible your neck will be fine with lighter strings when the weather returns to normal.

So at this point I wouldn't advise replacing the neck or buying a guitar with a different type of truss rod or anything drastic like that.

All Gibsons use single-action rods. Many, probably most Fenders have single-action rods. Martins, Epiphones, Squiers, Tokais -- the overwhelming majority of guitars have single-action rods. It's very rare to encounter a neck that can't get enough relief by loosening a single-action rod. It happens, but very rare.


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Post subject: Re: need help with classic 50s truss rod adjustment
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:04 pm
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You must always adjust truss rod with strings on guitar.

The truss rod nut you have is easy to work on with strings. And with right screw driver. I, sometimes, use angle screwdriver.
I use 0.013 inches on 8th fret on all my Fender guitars

If the guitar has never had truss rod adjustment, neck may take many hours to move, sometimes one day. With strings on.
So wait.

I'm french speaking , if speaking french is easier for you go to French section. I'll follow you and we'll speak in french


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