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Post subject: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:27 pm
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Hi there!

Just signed up to this forum - looks great! :D

Lately I've been working on my Telecaster which needed a fret level, re-crown, polish & final set-up.
All the work turned out perfect and I got rid of the nasty buzz I had before - yay! :mrgreen:

Now that the guitar is all set up I would like to have a look at the nut and the string action at the nut.
I've measured the current string action at the nut, and this is what I got:

E - .020"
A - .022"
D - .026"
G - .030"
B - .028"
e - .030"

From what I've read and seen on different videos, I would say the low E and A-string is fine, but could the D, G, B and high e-string go down a little?
Maybe shoot for around .020" on the remaining 4 strings?
Right now I don't find the guitar that hard to play and it sounds great, but if it would be possible, I might take it down... What measurements or methods do you guys shoot for, when adjusting string action at the nut?

Thanks! :)

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:00 pm
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Certainly seems high to me but as long as you are liking it why change it?

I think .20 low E and the A is fine, but Fender suggests a slow decline to about .12 if I recall for the high E.

Depends on your feel though imo when fretting chords, etc. Fretwork leveling/crowning sometimes makes it necessary to replace the nut. What is the neck relief look like?

Be careful though if you decrease the string break angle towards the tuners to much or bury the strings to deep you'll have to start over w/ a new nut.
If you have the tools and you decide to do it yourself, it'll probably be best to remove the nut from the guitar to work on it but sometimes not.
Make very small adjustments and refit/measure. You can take some off the bottom if you're comfortable w/ that, just keep it level but best to only do this w/ a new blank.

I think there are plenty of online video aides.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:18 am
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First two caveats:
1. I won't comment your numbers, since I don't know how you measured those.
2. "Don't fix it if it's not broke." So, if you have no trouble (with open chords, barre chords on the first fret, single notes playing high on first few frets etc.), leave it alone.

But, as you're going to do this anyway, and since the nut is essential for a proper setup, here goes:

Measuring: Capo on third fret, measure the clearance between string bottom and first fret top.

There are surprisingly few recommendations for nut slot height, but .010" (0,25mm) for lowE, .006" (0,15mm) for highE are mentioned in both TUSQ and LSR Roller Nut install instructions.
On my own guitars, I go even lower - after all, a lot of zero fret guitars were built with all frets level.
The rest of the strings should follow a nice curve related to the fretboard radius between the measures you choose for the E-strings.
And nut jobs ain't just measuring; your fingers tell you when the nut is perfect for you.

One thing to note: the shape of the nut slot is just as important as the height. The string should not sit too deep in the groove, the contact point (Edit: should that actually be "release point..?) should be just at the front (neck side) of the nut, and the slot bottom should drop and widen a bit to the headstock side (sort of a trumpet bell shape).

Oh, I almost forgot: Only use proper tools. And have a spare nut (/blank) ready if this is your first time.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:42 am
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sfceric64 wrote:
Certainly seems high to me but as long as you are liking it why change it?

I think .20 low E and the A is fine, but Fender suggests a slow decline to about .12 if I recall for the high E.

Depends on your feel though imo when fretting chords, etc. Fretwork leveling/crowning sometimes makes it necessary to replace the nut. What is the neck relief look like?

Be careful though if you decrease the string break angle towards the tuners to much or bury the strings to deep you'll have to start over w/ a new nut.
If you have the tools and you decide to do it yourself, it'll probably be best to remove the nut from the guitar to work on it but sometimes not.
Make very small adjustments and refit/measure. You can take some off the bottom if you're comfortable w/ that, just keep it level but best to only do this w/ a new blank.

I think there are plenty of online video aides.


Yes, you're right, why change it... and I think I'm not going to, at least not at the moment.
Maybe I'll end up doing it after a couple of months, when I've been playing the instrument some more :)

Yeah, I thought the .020" on the low E & A-string seemed fine too, I was just a little unsure about the rest.
I've seen people go for measurements where they create that slow decline, as you say, and I will try that, at some point. I've also seen some people go for the same measurements for all the strings.

Hmm, don't know if I would agree on that - necessarily having to replace the nut after a fret level, etc - it would depend on the overall shape of the nut and the nut slots itself. :)
The neck relief is set to Fender specs., for a Telecaster with a 9.5" fretboard radius, at .010"
Maybe it's a little lower than that.

Yeah, I'm aware that I have to go slowly and take my time, when doing this type of work, and I will.
I have a set of guitar nut files, so there should be no problem there.
I don't think I would remove the nut, when slotting the nut slots - it would be much easier to do this with the nut on the guitar and tuned to pitch. :)
If I was making a nut from scratch, then it would be ideal to start working with the nut removed from the guitar, then fitting it later on.

I will make sure to make small adjustments and check frequently as I go.
Taking material off the bottom of the nut would be fine, knowing the depth of the nut slots isn't too low, otherwise it would only take the slots down too low.
But yes, that would be ideal when working on a nut blank.

Yes, there're plenty of videos out there, and I watch a bunch of them, just wanted to ask here too. It's good to have as much info as possible :D

Thanks for your reply, sfceric64.
Cheers!

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:57 am
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jmattis wrote:
First two caveats:
1. I won't comment your numbers, since I don't know how you measured those.
2. "Don't fix it if it's not broke." So, if you have no trouble (with open chords, barre chords on the first fret, single notes playing high on first few frets etc.), leave it alone.

But, as you're going to do this anyway, and since the nut is essential for a proper setup, here goes:

Measuring: Capo on third fret, measure the clearance between string bottom and first fret top.

There are surprisingly few recommendations for nut slot height, but .010" (0,25mm) for lowE, .006" (0,15mm) for highE are mentioned in both TUSQ and LSR Roller Nut install instructions.
On my own guitars, I go even lower - after all, a lot of zero fret guitars were built with all frets level.
The rest of the strings should follow a nice curve related to the fretboard radius between the measures you choose for the E-strings.
And nut jobs ain't just measuring; your fingers tell you when the nut is perfect for you.

One thing to note: the shape of the nut slot is just as important as the height. The string should not sit too deep in the groove, the contact point (Edit: should that actually be "release point..?) should be just at the front (neck side) of the nut, and the slot bottom should drop and widen a bit to the headstock side (sort of a trumpet bell shape).

Oh, I almost forgot: Only use proper tools. And have a spare nut (/blank) ready if this is your first time.


1. I measured using feeler gauges, sliding them under the strings, measuring from fret top to string bottom - all open strings.
2. Yeah, I get that, and I might end up doing so, hehe - thanks! :)

Yes, I've seen people take measurements like that - I'll try it out.

Oh, okay, I actually didn't know that the TUSQ /Graphtech) nuts recommended that - would be worth trying!
Though, to me .006" for the high e seems low - but I'm guessing with a good fret level, etc. it would be possible.

Just yesterday I filed the nut slot depth on my Tradition S20M Les Paul, and I went for .020" for all the strings. At the start they all were at .040 - it turned out great and made it much easier to play. So as you say, the feel has a lot to do with it too!

I'm aware that the strings should sit with half its diameter in the slot and the other half above. Thanks.

I've got a proper set of nut files, so there should be no problem there.
I'll get a spare nut, in case anything shoud go wrong - you never know :wink:

Thanks for your reply, jmattis!
Cheers.

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:22 am
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Having the G string slightly taller than the D string is often recommended - because the D string is wound, it's much thicker, and the G string can feel low if it isn't a tiny bit higher up than the curve would dictate.

Some also like the E string a bit higher because of bends, but that's more of a bridge action preference than a nut preference.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:47 am
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KenniB wrote:
I've got a proper set of nut files, so there should be no problem there.

For the wound strings, I use Dan Erlewine's method of attaching a piece of string of the gauge you use to a stick. While filing is much slower, it is exactly the right thickness.
My own improvement is to use square stick, which gives me a side for all the three wound strings, and some 600/1000 grit sandpaper on the last side for smoothing the corners and buffing up the finish.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:10 am
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I also should have mentioned measuring technique. I use the Fender method Arth described.
I should have also mentioned the relationship between the nut and bridge height.

After reviewing Erlewine's book the Fender spec is .020 (+/- .002) so the range is .022 to .018. They recommend the same slot depth w/in this variance from the factory for all string slots.

Quote:
I measured using feeler gauges, sliding them under the strings, measuring from fret top to string bottom - all open strings.
So your action is much lower than I initially interpreted. I would measure as Arth described, much more reliable to remove the bridge height factor using a capo on the 3rd. Would like to see your numbers measured this way.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:17 am
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sfceric64 wrote:
I also should have mentioned measuring technique. I use the Fender method Arth described.
I should have also mentioned the relationship between the nut and bridge height.

After reviewing Erlewine's book the Fender spec is .020 (+/- .002) so the range is .022 to .018. They recommend the same slot depth w/in this variance from the factory for all string slots.

Quote:
I measured using feeler gauges, sliding them under the strings, measuring from fret top to string bottom - all open strings.
So your action is much lower than I initially interpreted. I would measure as Arth described, much more reliable to remove the bridge height factor using a capo on the 3rd. Would like to see your numbers measured this way.


All good, just wanted to point it out :)
I have the Erlewine book too, but not home at the moment - will check it when I get home!

Well, "much lower" - don't know if I would say that. To me .040" is high for nut action..
It practically made the guitar play out of tune, when fretted...

Last night I checked the current action height at the nut, on the TUSQ nut, pressing the two e-strings down after the 2nd fret wire, and it matches the specs. Graphtech gives on their webpage - Low E .010" gap & high e .006 gap.

So everything should be fine there.

Just a question - why would the other way of measuring be more reliable??
I've seen many people/techs on YouTube that do it the same way?
Don't know if any of you have seen Sam Deeks on YouTube?

So you would put a capo on 3rd fret, check the measurements and file the slots from there, if needed, or?

Cheers! :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:48 am
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KenniB wrote:
Just a question - why would the other way of measuring be more reliable??

I don't think it's about "reliability", rather about speaking the same language. See the difference between your original measures vs the ones from 'capo/finger on third fret' measuring


KenniB wrote:
So you would put a capo on 3rd fret, check the measurements and file the slots from there, if needed, or?

Ahmm... Yes..? Usually... Sometimes...
(= Instructions given on the forum often contain elements that try to ensure success, even when the receiver of those instructions doesn't have a lot of experience. The gut feel develops in time, and with it the 'tech' takes shorcuts, e.g. doesn't use feeler gauges every time.)


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:22 am
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jmattis wrote:
KenniB wrote:
Just a question - why would the other way of measuring be more reliable??

I don't think it's about "reliability", rather about speaking the same language. See the difference between your original measures vs the ones from 'capo/finger on third fret' measuring


KenniB wrote:
So you would put a capo on 3rd fret, check the measurements and file the slots from there, if needed, or?

Ahmm... Yes..? Usually... Sometimes...
(= Instructions given on the forum often contain elements that try to ensure success, even when the receiver of those instructions doesn't have a lot of experience. The gut feel develops in time, and with it the 'tech' takes shorcuts, e.g. doesn't use feeler gauges every time.)


Yeah, I can see the difference, but the guitar plays like butter, so I can't have messed it up?
Again, must be all about preference - but I see what you mean :)

Alright - thanks!

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:48 am
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Quote:
Just a question - why would the other way of measuring be more reliable??

Because it eliminates the bridge, if you alter the bridge height w/ the saddle screws it will impact the reading slightly.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster String Action At The Nut.
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:41 am
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sfceric64 wrote:
Quote:
Just a question - why would the other way of measuring be more reliable??

Because it eliminates the bridge, if you alter the bridge height w/ the saddle screws it will impact the reading slightly.

As well as taking most of truss rod relief out of the equation, which can have a larger impact.


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