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Post subject: Micro-tilt
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:59 pm
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I'm considering buying a new American Standard, or a Limited Edition American Standard Figured Neck, or an American Elite Telecaster. I'm not familiar with the micro-tilt adjustment feature that comes with the Standard. I'm not sure if it comes on the Limited Edition, maybe someone knows for sure, and it's been deleted on the new Elite. I basically understand that it aids in neck angle adjustments somehow, but is it's deletion of any real significance? What would you do if the neck needed to be adjusted?
Also, does anyone have the experience of playing a guitar with a compound (C to D) neck, and what was your opinion regarding playability changes.
One last thing. The Elite comes with, what they refer to as, locking tuning machines. I've never had them on any guitar before. What do they do exactly? And please don't say "they lock". :lol: Thanks.....Dave

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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:40 pm
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My American Deluxe has it, but I have the Micro-Tilt set screw backed off so that the neck is fully seated in the pocket. I like as much contact as possible with the neck and the body; my action is just the way I like it with out this "feature". I could be wrong, but I feel if I used the Micro-tilt it would lessen the sustain.

Here is Fender's explanation:http://www2.fender.com/experience/tech-talk/what-is-micro-tilt/

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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:23 am
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With micro tilt you don't need to put shim if needed, you use micro tilt as a shim.

You keep the neck flush to the body with no micro tilt screw pressure in most case, like no shim needed.

Use micro tilt only if you can't use bridge's saddles to adjust action. If saddles's screws are ou of their range.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:28 am
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To say it simply, the Micro-Tilt™ reduces the need to use shims if one needs to adjust the neck angle.
Note: 'reduces', not 'removes', because the MT™ only works one way.
Edit: The MT™ is on the LtdEd Figured Neck Tele, too - at least according to pic#4 on Gearnuts

The locking tuners, well, they do lock the string in the tuning machines end, so that reduces the risk of (maybe most common cause of) tuning problems; loose/wrong windings on the post. String changes are easier, again simplified: string in hole, pull tight, lock with thumbwheel, tune.

On the compound neck profile, have you read what Fender has to say: TechTalk AmElite Neck
And to simplify this: you just gotta play and judge for yourself. One note here: replacement necks with AmEl heel aren't available, yet.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:27 pm
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I'm surprised that Fender has not eliminated the "micro-tilt" adjustment, as I have found it to be basically useless.
Rarely, if ever, is there a need to tilt the neck "backward" more than a truss rod adjustment would provide, which is what the "micro-tilt" adjustment is designed for.
A "micro-tilt" adjustment for tilting the neck "forward," would be somewhat more useful.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:54 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
Rarely, if ever, is there a need to tilt the neck "backward" more than a truss rod adjustment would provide, which is what the "micro-tilt" adjustment is designed for.

The truss rod does not tilt the neck, backwards or forwards. It works against the string tension, controlling relief = how much (actually, how little) the neck is allowed to bend.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:04 pm
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Thanks for your interest, and the information guys.
I don't think that the presence, or the deletion of a micro-tilt adjustment, is going to be a determining factor in my purchase of any guitar. Whatever guitar I buy, if the neck angle ever needs to be adjusted, I'll simply deal with it at the time. It doesn't seem like a very common occurrence, and I had my '63 Tele for 50 years, and it never needed to be adjusted.
jmattis, further to what you were saying about the availability of Elite necks, I looked on ebay, and there are genuine Fender Elite necks available, if your willing to part with $580 US. That's not me, and also I don't think that you could properly adapt the neck, at the heel, to another Fender model. The shape of it doesn't match up. It would be all right if Fender could provide a C to D neck for the Standard series. There's a whole lot of toys on the Elite that don't interest me. But a better choice of a neck profiles on other guitars would be nice. For instance, I like the 2016 Limited Edition American Standard, and it's features including the compound fingerboard profile, but a compound neck option would be nice.
I probably should have divided this thread into 3 separate parts, but one thought just led to another.
The locking tuners, I like a lot. In 50 years, I always hated re-stringing! The Limited Edition doesn't have them, but at least they're available for about a $100 retro-fit.

Thanks again. I appreciate it..................................Dave

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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:47 pm
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Solina Dave wrote:
jmattis, further to what you were saying about the availability of Elite necks, I looked on ebay, and there are genuine Fender Elite necks available

What I meant was that if one doesn't like the neck on a stock American Elite, different (profile, radius, width, frets etc.) "drop-in" necks aren't available yet.
Not much sense switching the neck to a similar one from ebay... :wink:
That's of course based on the general internet wisdom (= so far, assumption) that the new AmElite heel won't accept other model necks.

(And BTW, the vintage Elites are a whole different thing.)


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:54 pm
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jmattis wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
Rarely, if ever, is there a need to tilt the neck "backward" more than a truss rod adjustment would provide, which is what the "micro-tilt" adjustment is designed for.

The truss rod does not tilt the neck, backwards or forwards. It works against the string tension, controlling relief = how much (actually, how little) the neck is allowed to bend.

Perhaps I was a bit inartful in my statement, to which you have taken exception.

I was not describing "tilting the neck backward or forward" with a truss rod adjustment.
Rather, I was describing an effect on string action, relative to an established bridge saddle height with a positive truss rod adjustment.
I was describing the alteration the geometry of the neck and the effective nut height, relative to the height of the bridge saddles, through a positive trust rod adjustment.

I'm sure that you will now say that a truss rod adjustment is not for adjusting string height or action.
While technically true, the reality is that both the saddle height and the truss rod adjustment affect string height and a balance between the two is required.

A micro-adjustment is also a method for altering the fundamental geometry of the neck and the effective height of the nut relative to the bridge saddles.

My refined statement, which may hopefully meet your approval, is that: "Rarely, if ever, is there a need to tilt the neck "backward" with a micro-tilt adjustment, to adjust the nut-to-saddle geometry, more than a positive truss rod adjustment would provide."

The micro-adjustment does not allow for a "forward" tilt adjustment, which I believe would be possibly more useful.
But this probably has been dismissed by fender due to possible neck instability, or possible neck pocket cracking, that such a relocation of the micro-tilt adjustment to the top neck mounting screws may possibly produce.

The bottom line is that I find the Fender micro-adjustment to be basically useless.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:41 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
The bottom line is that I find the Fender micro-adjustment to be basically useless.


It appears that Fender might agree with you - the Micro-Tilt has been dropped from the American Elite series and also The Edge Signature Strat.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:33 am
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MickJagger wrote:
The bottom line is that I find the Fender micro-adjustment to be basically useless.
I agree on this - almost would like to say, good riddance.

But, the effects of a truss rod adjustment and neck angle (and action) adjustment are totally different, and one can't be used when another is needed. This is especially important when one wants to play with lower action.

And, there are several situations when the neck angle needs to be changed.
One example: many find that high saddles give better sound/sustain (via increased string break angle over the saddle = "downforce"). Shimming lets one keep lower action with maxxed saddles.
Try to achieve the same with the truss rod; the guitar will be unplayable.

And (way back on early days when I learned how to fiddle with guitars), a shim was quite a common fix for high sticking saddle screws. No Dremels, so this was faster... :wink:
Then there are the models where the bridge design typically causes (buzzing, wandering strings...) problems which need shimming - Jags, Jazzmasters, Mustangs... Funny enough, these models never got the MT™ feature.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:08 am
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Being primarily a fingerpicker, I appreciate the micro-tilt. It allows me to keep low action while still have a good string clearance at the picking position.
(A backwards tilting neck with good string clearance over the body is one of the reasons why I love my SG and Revstar, and aren't particularly fond of strats.)

And as jmattis says, the truss rod is not for adjusting action, despite what some seem to think. The truss rod adjusts the bow of the bendable part of the neck (usually from around fret 2 to 16), compensating for wooden necks bending with string pressure and humidity. But don't try to use it to compensate for bad action, or you'll end up with very uneven action at best, and fret-outs at worst.
Action is adjusted by raising and lowering strings at the end points - the nut and bridge. Yes, the nut too. Most guitars come from the factory with a too high nut for lead guitar. Unless you play rhythm or slide, the action at the headstock end is going to be uncomfortable high until the nut is filed down to a more comfortable height.

Again, I love micro-tilt. It allows me to keep a low and only slightly increasing action all the way up the fretboard without sacrificing sustain or string/body clearance.
The metal-to-metal connection gives a much harder connection between neck and body than a shim does, for better sustain. And it's a lot easier to get the exact adjustment you want.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:24 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Being primarily a fingerpicker, I appreciate the micro-tilt. It allows me to keep low action while still have a good string clearance at the picking position.

It somehow is not surprising to me that you like the micro-tilt adjustment, and can find that it is useful for adjusting the neck backward.

One of the main problems with the micro-tilt is that it is really not suitable for providing a true "micro" adjustment.
Shimming the neck, either at the top or the bottom mounting screws, with one or two thin strips of masking tape (approximately 5 to 10 one thousandths of an inch, or 5 to 10 mils), makes an enormous difference in neck geometry from the nut to the saddles.
Anyone would be hard pressed to try to use the micro-tilt hex set screw to accomplish such fine "micro" adjustment.
To the extent that you are actually using the micro-tilt adjustment, and are able to tilt the neck back with a micro-tilt adjustment adding only 5-10 mils at the lower neck mounting screws, your saddles must be set very high, or you are using a lot of relief, or both.

If you find that using the micro-tilt, provides closer "usable" action, than not using the micro-tilt, on any normal Fender Telecaster, without compromising other adjustments to your guitar, you are even more of a technical guitar "Wizard," than I have previously given you credit for being.

arth1 wrote:
And as jmattis says, the truss rod is not for adjusting action, despite what some seem to think. The truss rod adjusts the bow of the bendable part of the neck (usually from around fret 2 to 16), compensating for wooden necks bending with string pressure and humidity. But don't try to use it to compensate for bad action, or you'll end up with very uneven action at best, and fret-outs at worst.

Action is adjusted by raising and lowering strings at the end points - the nut and bridge. Yes, the nut too.

You can't quite have it both ways arth1.
Adjusting the truss rod effectively alters the height of the nut relative to the bridge saddles.

Obviously, you can set the neck to the relief to spec., using a capo and feeler gauge, and then set the action solely by adjusting the bridge saddle height to the lowest position for each string, where there is no fret buzzing at any fret for each string.
If heat, humidity or string tension alters the guitar's action, either by raising the action to where it becomes uncomfortable, or by lowering the action to where one or more strings begin to "fret out" or buzz, at one or more frets; the proper adjustment is a truss rod adjustment, because the saddles were previously, properly adjusted.

But contrary to the "orthodoxy" and "dogma" that you and jmattis like to engage in, there is no reason that should preclude adjusting both the truss rod and the bridge height "in concert" (without use of a capo and feeler gauge), so as to achieve a balance between the truss rod adjustment and the bridge saddle height, to achieve the lowest "usable" action for each string at each fret.
This is sometimes required for reasons such as fret wear.

My experience is that I have never found that there is anything further to be gained by using the "micro-tilt" adjustment to tilt the neck backward, except for the likely requirement that the saddle height, relieve or both will need to compensate for the "micro-tilt" adjustment, due to the accurate, CNC production of Fender necks and bodies.

As I previously said, adjusting the truss rod will normally provide the maximum adjustment for lowering the nut on a Fender Telecaster.
My experience is that Factory Fender Telecasters normally do not need, or respond well to micro-tilt adjustments which tilt the neck backwards.

arth1 wrote:
Most guitars come from the factory with a too high nut for lead guitar. Unless you play rhythm or slide, the action at the headstock end is going to be uncomfortable high until the nut is filed down to a more comfortable height.

I assume that the "factory guitars" you are referring to, include "Fender" guitars.
I don't believe that this is an accurate "generalization" regarding Fender Telecasters.
I don't even believe that this proposition should be considered to be "generally" applicable, to Fender MIM Telecasters.
Regardless of how you choose to lower string action, "usable" low action can only be adjusted down to a point where the strings do not "fret out" or buzz at any fret.
"Generally" this can be accomplished on almost all Fender Telecasters without filing and lowering the string slots in the nut, by adjustments to the saddle height and truss rod.

arth1 wrote:
Again, I love micro-tilt. It allows me to keep a low and only slightly increasing action all the way up the fretboard without sacrificing sustain or string/body clearance.
The metal-to-metal connection gives a much harder connection between neck and body than a shim does, for better sustain.

Once again, I must pierce the veil of electric guitar MYTHOLOGY, as it is a ludicrous proposition that "metal-to-metal connection gives a much harder connection between neck and body than a shim does, for better sustain."

All amplified sound of an electric guitar is the result of an interplay between steel strings and magnetic pickups.

Sustain is solely attributable to the quality of your pickups, your amplifier, any pedals employed, the condition of your strings, and...; how rapidly your strings lose energy due to the forces of magnetism, air density and humidity, gravity, motion of the guitar, and the amount and/or rate that string energy bleeds off, sinks into, and is absorbed by the wooden components of a solid body electric guitar; namely, the "neck" and "body".

"Sustain" has absolutely nothing to do with the connection of the neck to the body of a Fender guitar, or any other type of solid body electric guitar.
Your proposition is true "common knowledge," electric guitar MYTHOLOGY.

String energy, bleeds off vibrational energy into the neck and body, which sinks into, and is absorbed, by the neck and body of the guitar.
The vibrational energy does not "feed back" from the neck and body, into the strings, and does not produce an amplified sound from an interaction between the strings and the magnetic pickups.
The vibrational energy flows in one direction only.
It is physically impossible for a lower rebound vibrational energy, to "feed back" on top of the stronger source energy in the strings.
Therefore, it does not affect interaction between the strings and the magnetic pickups and does not affect "sustain".

Similarly, the vibration of the neck and body, is vibrational energy which has bled off from the strings, which sinks into, and is absorbed by the neck and body.
This decaying, vibrational energy in the neck and body of solid body electric guitars, is not, in any manner, reproduced by modern, non-microphonic, magnetic pickups.
Vibrational energy in the neck and body of solid body electric guitars, has no affect on the amplified sound of an electric guitar, or on "sustain".


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:31 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
Sustain is solely attributable to the quality of your pickups, your amplifier, any pedals employed, the condition of your strings, and...; how rapidly your strings lose energy due to the forces of magnetism, air density and humidity, gravity, motion of the guitar, and the amount and/or rate that string energy bleeds off, sinks into, and is absorbed by the wooden components of a solid body electric guitar; namely, the "neck" and "body".

I would further add to the list of things which may affect guitar "sustain," that "scale length" should certainly have an affect on natural guitar "sustain".
However, any variation on "how rapidly strings lose energy due to the forces of magnetism, air density and humidity, gravity......, and the amount and/or rate that string energy bleeds off, sinks into, and is absorbed by the wooden components of a solid body electric guitar," is generally beyond the ability of the human ear to recognize any difference or variation of guitar "sustain" in amplified sound.


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Post subject: Re: Micro-tilt
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:00 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
Sustain is solely attributable to the quality of your pickups, your amplifier, any pedals employed, the condition of your strings, and...; how rapidly your strings lose energy due to the forces of magnetism, air density and humidity, gravity, motion of the guitar, and the amount and/or rate that string energy bleeds off, sinks into, and is absorbed by the wooden components of a solid body electric guitar; namely, the "neck" and "body".

I would further add to the list of things which may affect guitar "sustain," that "scale length" should certainly have an affect on natural guitar "sustain".
However, any variation on "how rapidly strings lose energy due to the forces of magnetism, air density and humidity, gravity......, and the amount and/or rate that string energy bleeds off, sinks into, and is absorbed by the wooden components of a solid body electric guitar," is generally beyond the ability of the human ear to recognize any difference or variation of guitar "sustain" in amplified sound.


Short of Fleeber in The Freshman, I never saw anyone quote themselves.

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