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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:00 am
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MickJagger wrote:
I can't imagine that the finish marks on your guitar are from the strap, as I cannot imagine how a strap would touch the face for the body below the bridge????

That's easy enough to imagine. The most likely scenario I can think of is someone being too lazy to take the strap off when putting the guitar in a case, and letting it rest on the surface of the guitar. Another scenario includes the guitar sitting in a stand with the strap in the front, and someone leaning something against it. Or even a black strap just hanging in front of the guitar in direct sunshine.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:42 pm
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arth1 wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
I can't imagine that the finish marks on your guitar are from the strap, as I cannot imagine how a strap would touch the face for the body below the bridge????

That's easy enough to imagine. The most likely scenario I can think of is someone being too lazy to take the strap off when putting the guitar in a case, and letting it rest on the surface of the guitar. Another scenario includes the guitar sitting in a stand with the strap in the front, and someone leaning something against it. Or even a black strap just hanging in front of the guitar in direct sunshine.

Only in an active imagination like yours, arth1, could a strap land on the same area of the guitar repeatedly under the supposed circumstances that you describe, create that problem in the finish.
It is not a "rash," but rather "clouding" of the finish.
The problem is most certainly, a defective finish.

As I stated, I have experienced the exact same type of clouding in the finish on a Takamine 2002 LTD acoustic guitar, which has grown progressively worse over time.
Short of refinishing the guitar, I know of no cure.
I doubt that it is possible to polish such "clouding" out of the finish.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:42 pm
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MickJagger wrote:
arth1 wrote:
MickJagger wrote:
I can't imagine that the finish marks on your guitar are from the strap, as I cannot imagine how a strap would touch the face for the body below the bridge????

That's easy enough to imagine. The most likely scenario I can think of is someone being too lazy to take the strap off when putting the guitar in a case, and letting it rest on the surface of the guitar. Another scenario includes the guitar sitting in a stand with the strap in the front, and someone leaning something against it. Or even a black strap just hanging in front of the guitar in direct sunshine.

Only in an active imagination like yours, arth1, could a strap land on the same area of the guitar repeatedly under the supposed circumstances that you describe, create that problem in the finish.
It is not a "rash," but rather "clouding" of the finish.
The problem is most certainly, a defective finish.

As I stated, I have experienced the exact same type of clouding in the finish on a Takamine 2002 LTD acoustic guitar, which has grown progressively worse over time.
Short of refinishing the guitar, I know of no cure.
I doubt that it is possible to polish such "clouding" out of the finish.
Look at his 2nd picture. The image below the large defect does not look like clouding. There's a pattern in the "cloud" that looks like a cloth weave or something like that. This is not a glare because you can see the image in the 1st photo, just not as good. He also mentioned in one of his posts that he could feel the defect with his fingernail. I don't know if it's a strap rash or not, but it seems like it could be something that's repairable.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:40 pm
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Sparky84 wrote:
Back to the Tele - there are now a few barely noticeable "clear" smudges on the front of the body, about the size of a coin and between the bridge and strap pin, that I don't think were there when I bought it. They are very hard to see, you have to turn it a certain way until the light reflects off the smudge. When I try to wipe it with a cloth or polish, it doesn't affect it at all, so it does not appear to be anything sticky that got on the outside of the finish. So I'm wondering if it is sort of bubbling up from underneath the outer coating of sealant (whatever that is), and possibly whether that is due to the temperature fluctuation and/or humidity here on the equator. It does not appear to be an actual air bubble - yet......

....Picture 1 shows a couple of the blotches when the light hits it the right way (ignore the bright round spot on the top right, that is the reflection of the spotlight). You can see the reflection of irregular blotches just above and right of the bridge (with the guitar upside down), and a smaller one just right of the bridge pickup. Pic 2, is a closeup of the two lower marks (again ignore the bright roundish reflection in the left middle) - you can see the bottom mark actually has some texture. And contrary to what I said before, you can just barely feel these scraping a fingernail across them. If I use my fingertips, though, I can't feel anything on the surface....

LawFlow wrote:
Look at his 2nd picture. The image below the large defect does not look like clouding. There's a pattern in the "cloud" that looks like a cloth weave or something like that. This is not a glare because you can see the image in the 1st photo, just not as good. He also mentioned in one of his posts that he could feel the defect with his fingernail. I don't know if it's a strap rash or not, but it seems like it could be something that's repairable.

Image
Image
MickJagger wrote:
As I stated, I have experienced the exact same type of "clouding" in the finish on a Takamine 2002 LTD acoustic guitar, which has grown progressively worse over time.

Here is a picture of clouding in the finish of my Takamine guitar.

Image
As you can see, the picture of the back of my Takamine guitar, appears exactly like what is shown in both of Sparky84's pictures, except for the area described as showing "texture".

I don't know what might have caused the appearance of "texture," but it is very unlikely that it came from any "abrasion" from a strap.
Maybe if a cloth strap was left on the face of the guitar, in a case, with the guitar sitting on its back, or face down, with a strap touching the face of the guitar in 150 (F) degree temperature...., maybe...., just maybe...., the fabric pattern or "texture" of a cloth strap could melt onto the surface, leaving a "texture" imprint.

It cannot do so by "abrasion".
And it is very unlikely that "abrasion" created the non-textured blemishes, because it is extremely unlikely that the strap would repeatedly be in the exact same place to cause such localized blemishes by "abrasion".

I would therefore conclude that the blemishes generally indicate "clouding" of the finish of the guitar that was caused either due to a defective finish, or due to leaving the guitar, face up or down, in its case, with a strap touching the guitar body, and subjected to intense heat.

Either way, the finish is almost certainly "clouded".
It extremely unlikely that the finish is abraded with a strap "rash".
This means that it is extremely unlikely that you could polish out the blemish without making the guitar look much worse for trying.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:37 am
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MickJagger wrote:
Only in an active imagination like yours, arth1, could a strap land on the same area of the guitar repeatedly under the supposed circumstances that you describe, create that problem in the finish.

Only in an inactive imagination like yours, MickJagger, could a strap not be in place for long enough to make an impression without repetition.

MickJagger wrote:
It is not a "rash," but rather "clouding" of the finish.
The problem is most certainly, a defective finish.

Have you even looked at the pictures? You can clearly see the fabric of the strap in the bottom picture. And for the others, it matches the width of a strap.
This is certainly not "certainly, a defective finish" except as in defective, caused by a strap.

As for white areas, those are often caused by sweat. Clean your guitar after use, and make sure a sweaty strap (or in your case belly) doesn't rest against it.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:24 pm
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jmattis wrote:
Pics show fine, and the size is OK.
Looking at the second pic, I'd agree that the strap is the most likely culprit.

LawFlow wrote:
I concur. That definitely looks like strap rash.

MickJagger wrote:
I can't imagine that the finish marks on your guitar are from the strap, as I cannot imagine how a strap would touch the face for the body below the bridge????
I have a 2000 Takamine LTD acoustic guitar..., that has finish "ghost marks" which have gotten progressively worse over the years....

arth1 wrote:
That's easy enough to imagine. The most likely scenario I can think of is someone being too lazy to take the strap off when putting the guitar in a case, and letting it rest on the surface of the guitar. Another scenario includes the guitar sitting in a stand with the strap in the front, and someone leaning something against it. Or even a black strap just hanging in front of the guitar in direct sunshine.

MickJagger wrote:
It is not a "rash," but rather "clouding" of the finish.
The problem is most certainly, a defective finish.

arth1 wrote:
Have you even looked at the pictures? You can clearly see the fabric of the strap in the bottom picture. And for the others, it matches the width of a strap.
This is certainly not "certainly, a defective finish" except as in defective, caused by a strap.

Since I have reposted the pictures of the blemish on Sparky84's guitar above, I have of course looked at the pictures.
Admittedly, the blemish may have been caused by a strap inside a case, but not from a guitar strap while the guitar was sitting on a stand.
The blemish does not appear to be due to an "abrasion" from a strap sitting on the guitar finish.

The allegation of "strap rash" was where my initial posting was directed.
If the blemish was caused by a guitar strap inside a case, that was not removed from the guitar, then there was a chemical reaction in the finish either due to heat, or due to chemicals in the strap material, or both.

The bottom line is the finish is either defective with clouding, caused by an etiology unknown; or the blemish was possibly caused by a strap inside a case; either due to heat, chemicals in the strap fabric, or both, which may have caused the blemish.

In either case there is "clouding" in the finish; a condition that cannot be polished out.

Arth1, my initial remarks were addressing the alleged "abrasion" of the strap as the cause of this blemish.
if your statements were not intended to convey that the strap caused an "abrasion" or a "rash" (as was my interpretation of your prior post, due to the prior discussion) then perhaps we may be close to agreeing on a possible cause of this unfortunate blemish.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:44 am
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I have no idea what the marks really (truly, madly, deeply) are. Based on the pics and info (nitro, Singapore etc.), my best guess for the culprit is the strap.
A couple of things on this, as general notes: Nitro reacts to some strap materials and/or chemicals used in some straps. And, even if one has air conditioning, bad things can happen surprisingly quick, if a guitar is left in direct sunlight - especially if the window glass isn't high tech coated.

On the specific problem on this topic, I'd guess most of us would try to do something to those marks. The SOP would be from gentle to aggressive (normal cleaning > polishes > scratch removers > sand/scrape & polish > partial refinish > refinish > bonfire...).
At some point, most of us probably would just accept the Schmisse - and I believe that's what the OP did, a long time ago.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:27 pm
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Yikes! Didn't mean to cause such a fuss with this question. Let me provide a bit more of the facts that might help settle it:

1. Yes, I'm one of those lazy dudes who always leaves the strap attached to my guitars in the case. In fact I still do, only now I slip the polishing cloth underneath the strap between the bottom pin and the bridge, and then lay the strap on top of the strings. I did this because I didn't know any better, just as I wouldn't have a clue how to set up an amp on stage because I've never really played on stage.

2. While we're in confession, can I add that my guitars sit in their cases for weeks or months at a time because I travel a lot, have kids and hardly ever get to play them. And when I do it's through a tiny practice amp at low levels because I live in an apartment. And did I mention that I change my strings about twice a year?

3. The strap I've always had for this Tele is a black Fender strap with "weave" fabric on the outside, but shiny black vinyl on the inside, the part that used to touch the guitar. Before I started using the cloth trick (only after reading one of these forums that said never let the strap touch the guitar), I would always lay the strap along the left (upper) side of the bridge and pickups - with the vinyl side actually touching the guitar. It sounds like some sort of chemical reaction took place, and now it is gradually getting worse even though I no longer allow the strap to touch the body.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice and ideas. I think I will leave it alone because I'm not a qualified tinkerer, and would only make it worse.

I've had my Strat since 1990, with exactly the same kind of half-vinyl strap, and always stored the guitar with the strap touching the body in the same place. But the finish on the Strat is as beautiful as the day I bought it, if though it's been 25 years compared to only two with the Tele. Maybe the Strat has a different finish? In any case, since I never had any problems with the Strat strap, I didn't expect this problem with the Tele. Lesson learned, and now I don't allow any straps to lay against the body.


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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:43 pm
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I leave my straps on my guitars when I put them in the case. I've been doing it for decades. In fact, I have never done it any other way. I never had any problems and I never thought of it as lazy, just efficient. I leave the strap connected to the lower bout pin and disconnect from the upper horn pin. I lay the guitar in the case and place the strap along the top of the strings. Any excess length gets neatly tucked into the headstock compartment under the tuners.

My straps do not come into contact with the finish but even so, I still cannot see a strap leaving a permanent mark in the finish without the finish itself having some other external force or agent acting upon it besides the contact with the strap. If those marks were indeed made by the strap then there must also be something else going on of which we are not yet aware.

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Post subject: Re: Small problem with finish on Tele
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:46 pm
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One all too common cause for finish damage on guitars is bug spray. If bug spray got on the strap, and the strap then was pressed against the guitar, this would not be inconceivable.

As for why a Tele can be more affected than a Strat, well, it's thicker. Inside a case, the padded top of the case will press harder against the guitar.

But differences in the finish is also of importance. There are three basic types of finishes on Fender solidbody guitars:
1: Nitrocellulose, a.k.a. "nitro". The same stuff used on cars in the 1950s. This is a thin coat, and is more fragile than the others. Some like it better, because of the warm shine and thinner coat affecting the resonance of the wood less. It's commonly found on older guitars, and re-issues of older guitars.
2: Polyurethane, a.k.a. "urethane", but often also called "poly" (which is somewhat misleading - see below). This is found on newer American models, and is much more scratch and solvent resistant than nitro, although it does show wear.
3: Polyester, a.k.a. "poly". This is mainly found on Mexican and Japanese models, and is a thick hard shell impervious to pretty much anything (except bug spray). It does not buff to as nice a shine as nitro and urethane, and can feel a bit sticky to the touch. But it's the panzer version of finishes.

Scratches in a nitro finish can generally be repaired by a luthier. The affected area can be sanded down and new finish applied, which will bond with the old one. For urethane and especially poly finishes, it's harder to get a good result without stripping the entire guitar, as once the finish has cured, it won't bond with a new layer. If it's only in the top part of the coat, buffing it out with a mild abrasive may be possible. This may well be fixable for the "textured" damage here, although the cloudy areas might go too deep.


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