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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:21 pm
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deepsun wrote:
There was absolutely not a ground wire connected to the control cavity in my guitar, as that 2013 diagram shows. So did Fender screw up at the factory, or has their wiring changed since 2013?

N3s don't have the cavity grounding of the ground wire. The grounding to the cavity shielding helps against picking up EM noise coming through the air. (Some old guitars can pick up radio stations if turned the right way!) It's a humbucker, so it's largely immune to that. However, neither ground wires nor humbuckers do much to prevent noise coming in through the electrical system.

You might want to try an Ebtech Hum-X.

Note that to eliminate ground loops, you need one for each electrical device you plug in that are connected, i.e. one for the amp and another for the pedal board. Plugging both into a splitter that goes into a single Hum-X won't help much if the ground loop is with your pedals.
A single one will help somewhat against EM noise transmitted through the house, though. But for that, you're even better off with a ferrite core / ferrite bead / balun.

Whether you get a Hum X or a ferrite core, move it around until you find the source of the noise, and keep that isolated. Aquarium filters and pumps, fans and (especially) light dimmers are some common sources.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 am
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deepsun wrote:
A

I called and Fender and they told me to take it to my only authorized service center--Guitar Center. Their tech pulled the control plate off and he and I looked inside. Nothing amiss, as far as he and I could tell, but we tested another Deluxe Tele in the store and it had zero hum. When I got home I looked up a American Deluxe Telecaster wiring diagram and found this.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/ ... wiring-png

There was absolutely not a ground wire connected to the control cavity in my guitar, as that 2013 diagram shows. So did Fender screw up at the factory, or has their wiring changed since 2013?


The tech at service center/ Guitar Center did not see that ! .

We often read here that there is not many quaified tech working in guitar shops just good handyman.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:59 am
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stratele52 wrote:
deepsun wrote:
A

I called and Fender and they told me to take it to my only authorized service center--Guitar Center. Their tech pulled the control plate off and he and I looked inside. Nothing amiss, as far as he and I could tell, but we tested another Deluxe Tele in the store and it had zero hum. When I got home I looked up a American Deluxe Telecaster wiring diagram and found this.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/ ... wiring-png

There was absolutely not a ground wire connected to the control cavity in my guitar, as that 2013 diagram shows. So did Fender screw up at the factory, or has their wiring changed since 2013?


The tech at service center/ Guitar Center did not see that ! .

We often read here that there is not many quaified tech working in guitar shops just good handyman.


My thoughts exactly. Guess I'll look for the next nearest service center.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:02 am
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deepsun wrote:
[

My thoughts exactly. Guess I'll look for the next nearest service center.



Good luck , same kind of guy IMO ... :lol:

Solder yourself the ground


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:08 am
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stratele52 wrote:
deepsun wrote:
[

My thoughts exactly. Guess I'll look for the next nearest service center.



Good luck , same kind of guy IMO ... :lol:

Solder yourself the ground


Yeah, I might actually go that route instead. I wanted this to be Fender's responsibility and done under warranty, since it seems obvious that a brand new guitar should be properly grounded.

So are new Telecasters not grounded at the bridge? That wiring diagram doesn't seem to show any sort of grounding running from bridge to pot or jack.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:07 am
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deepsun wrote:
Yeah, I might actually go that route instead. I wanted this to be Fender's responsibility and done under warranty, since it seems obvious that a brand new guitar should be properly grounded.

So are new Telecasters not grounded at the bridge? That wiring diagram doesn't seem to show any sort of grounding running from bridge to pot or jack.


Read my earlier comment. N3s are humbuckers, and need no connection from the ground wire to the cavity shield. Single coils need them; humbuckers don't. The bridge plate should be grounded, but that is done through the screws fastening it to the bridge. You do not want an extra wire, or you create a ground loop.
Everything in a guitar should have either 0 or 1 contact points with ground. Never 2 or more, or you create a ground loop antenna.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:00 am
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arth1 wrote:
deepsun wrote:
Yeah, I might actually go that route instead. I wanted this to be Fender's responsibility and done under warranty, since it seems obvious that a brand new guitar should be properly grounded.

So are new Telecasters not grounded at the bridge? That wiring diagram doesn't seem to show any sort of grounding running from bridge to pot or jack.


Read my earlier comment. N3s are humbuckers, and need no connection from the ground wire to the cavity shield. Single coils need them; humbuckers don't. The bridge plate should be grounded, but that is done through the screws fastening it to the bridge. You do not want an extra wire, or you create a ground loop.
Everything in a guitar should have either 0 or 1 contact points with ground. Never 2 or more, or you create a ground loop antenna.


Oops! Sorry, didn't see your first message.

What you're saying makes sense, but I don't understand why that 2013 diagram (which is well after Fender introduced the N3s and S1 switch) would show a ground wire in the control cavity if 1) the pickups don't need grounding, since they're essentially humbuckers 2) it's already grounded at the bridge plate.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:41 am
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deepsun wrote:
What you're saying makes sense, but I don't understand why that 2013 diagram (which is well after Fender introduced the N3s and S1 switch) would show a ground wire in the control cavity if 1) the pickups don't need grounding, since they're essentially humbuckers 2) it's already grounded at the bridge plate.


My guess is that they used the same bodies and factory cell hookup routines for multiple versions.
Anyhow, it won't hurt to connect the ground wire to the shielding in the cavity, but for a humbucker, it won't help a lot either. Anything coming through the ether will still be bucked, and anything coming in through the jack will still go through.

And sometimes they mess up too - I have a MIM model that has the screw and all, but it's screwed into wood without the shielding paint. That does a lot of good!

But my N3 Tele doesn't have a connector, and for the bridge plate, the screws seem to be doing the job. Looking at the pickup, the screw holes are connected to the green wire, which is ground. Unless spraying the bridge plate with clear lacquer before screwing the N3 in, it should provide grounding just fine.
Image


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:46 am
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arth1 wrote:
deepsun wrote:
What you're saying makes sense, but I don't understand why that 2013 diagram (which is well after Fender introduced the N3s and S1 switch) would show a ground wire in the control cavity if 1) the pickups don't need grounding, since they're essentially humbuckers 2) it's already grounded at the bridge plate.


My guess is that they used the same bodies and factory cell hookup routines for multiple versions.
Anyhow, it won't hurt to connect the ground wire to the shielding in the cavity, but for a humbucker, it won't help a lot either. Anything coming through the ether will still be bucked, and anything coming in through the jack will still go through.

And sometimes they mess up too - I have a MIM model that has the screw and all, but it's screwed into wood without the shielding paint. That does a lot of good!

But my N3 Tele doesn't have a connector, and for the bridge plate, the screws seem to be doing the job. Looking at the pickup, the screw holes are connected to the green wire, which is ground. Unless spraying the bridge plate with clear lacquer before screwing the N3 in, it should provide grounding just fine.
Image


Oh, I'm open to them screwing something up. The control cavity in mine isn't shielded, either. I guess I'll take it back to the tech and have him officially check over the solder connections and look under the bridge plate. I guess this is the price I pay for a $1700 guitar?!


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:20 am
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deepsun wrote:
After more testing and searching, I definitely think it's a grounding issue.
At band rehearsal I can pick up EMI from other equipment on stage, and get it to stop by turning away from it.
But the ground hum is always there, touching metal on the guitar or not.......

Your problem does not appear to be from an electrical source or from a bad solder joint, or ground wire.
In such cases, the hum would likely be a constant hum, or would be an intermittent hum.
It would not be a motion affected, variable hum, where touching the strings reduces the hum, or moving the guitar varies the intensity of the hum.
Even though you have stacked humbucker, noiseless pickups, you are getting electromagnetic interference (EMI), which is producing your hum.
EMI, if strong enough, can affect humbuckers.

Technically, you do not have a "grounding issue," you have a shielding problem (unless one of your pickups is defective).
Since your guitar body is not shielded, your only solution would probably be to shield the guitar body with copper tape and then ground the copper shielding.
I have explained and illustrated the procedure in the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=99239

This is not a very elegant solution for a relatively new and expensive guitar, and would be very labor intensive, having to disassemble and re-assemble most of your guitar.
And this may or may not provide a complete solution to your problem, but should certainly help, assuming that shielding is your problem.
Should you decide to shield your guitar, try to keep your pickups away from your soldering iron, as the electric field can possibly affect the magnetism of your pickups.
And be careful when handling the N3 pickups, as they have a reputation for being somewhat fragile.

deepsun wrote:
So did Fender screw up at the factory, or has their wiring changed since 2013?

Fender probably stopped shielding the American Deluxe bodies.
This, in my opinion, is ridiculous, regardless of the fact that the American Deluxe Telecasters come with noiseless pickups, because humbuckers can be affected by EMI.
Presently on ebay there is a white, 2014 American Deluxe Telecaster body, that appears to have no shielding, and 2005 and 2006 bodies that are shielded.

deepsun wrote:
....... I guess I'll take it back to the tech and have him officially check over the solder connections and look under the bridge plate.
I guess this is the price I pay for a $1700 guitar?!

Unfortunately, this is probably a waste of time, since your hum is not constant or intermittent, and varies with moving the guitar, the problem is not likely a grounding or soldering issue.
However, if the authorized Fender service center cannot eliminate the hum, and there is another American Deluxe guitar that does not hum as much, perhaps you can get them to prorate your guitar and get a new one.
This may be your best option, as long as your guitar is still under warranty.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:51 am
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MickJagger wrote:
Unfortunately, this is probably a waste of time, since your hum is not constant or intermittent, and varies with moving the guitar, the problem is not likely a grounding or soldering issue.
However, if the authorized Fender service center cannot eliminate the hum, and there is another American Deluxe guitar that does not hum as much, perhaps you can get them to prorate your guitar and get a new one.
This may be your best option, as long as your guitar is still under warranty.


There is constant hum. The hum is constant at home and in rehearsal space, unless I touch the saddles, strings, controls, etc. Extra hum comes and goes. The hum wasn't there when I tried it at the authorized service center. I bought a Hum X to try at home and rehearsal space and it has absolutely zero effect on the issue.

Now what?!


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:13 am
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deepsun wrote:
There is constant hum. The hum is constant at home and in rehearsal space, unless I touch the saddles, strings, controls, etc. Extra hum comes and goes. The hum wasn't there when I tried it at the authorized service center.

I believe you still probably have an electrical interference problem.
Did you crank the Amp up at the Service Center high enough to hear the hum, to the level where you would hear the hum at home or at practice?
If you try your guitar at the service center again, if possible, use the same amp at the service center as the one that you have, and have set it at the same settings where you experience the hum at home or at practice.
If you do not get the hum at the service center with the amp cranked, then you probably are not getting electrical interference at that location.
Once again, you can try shielding the guitar with grounded copper tape, as I suggested above.
Just so you know, I have guitars with noiseless pickups that are shielded, and often still get a slight electrical interference hum that almost goes away when touching the strings, bridge or control knobs.
But this hum is nothing compared to some single coil pickups that I have used.

I assume that you have determined that the hum is not coming from your pedals or cords.
I also assume that you have determined that your amp does not hum when the guitar is not plugged in.
If you want to test your solder joints in your guitar, which I doubt is your problem, you can pull out the electronics panel and with the guitar plugged in and the amp on, take a pencil and tap tour solder joints and move the wires to see if you hear any change in the hum.
If you hear any change in the hum, you have found a bad solder joint.
Of course you cannot test the pickups using this method, but you can tap of the surface of the pickups with a pick, to see if vibration can cause any change in the hum.

deepsun wrote:
I bought a Hum X to try at home and rehearsal space and it has absolutely zero effect on the issue.

That's not surprising.
I would have been very surprised if the Hum X had done anything.
I tried to warn you that your problem was likely, not an electricity problem.
I too, purchased one of those worthless devices.

I bought a Fender BDRI that had an intermittent nasty hum, even when not plugged in
I made sure that the amp was plugged into a grounded outlet.
The electrical ground and the polarity of your electrical outlet can be easily tested by getting an electrical tester that plugs into the wall at a
home center for about $3.00.

I determined that the same amp at the guitar store did not have the hum.
So I took the amp to a local approved service center, and the amp would not hum.
I took the amp home.
Fortunately, the amp was still not humming when I got home.
I took the back off the amp and got a pencil and started probing the solder joints and wires inside the amp with the amp turned on.
It turned out that I had a "cold" solder joint, from the factory, at the one of the connections on the indicator, jewel light, which I re-soldered, fixing the problem.


Last edited by MickJagger on Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:23 am
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If the hum is made by the amp any gadget before the amp can't work.

And there is so many "kind " of hum, no gadget cant fix them all.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:27 am
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MickJagger wrote:
deepsun wrote:
There is constant hum. The hum is constant at home and in rehearsal space, unless I touch the saddles, strings, controls, etc. Extra hum comes and goes. The hum wasn't there when I tried it at the authorized service center.

I believe you still probably have an electrical interference problem.
Did you crank the Amp up at the Service Center high enough to hear the hum, to the level where you would hear the hum at home or at practice?
If you try your guitar at the service center again, if possible, use the same amp at the service center as the one that you have, and have set it at the same settings where you experience the hum at home or at practice.

I assume that you have determined that the hum is not coming from your pedals or cords.
I also assume that you have determined that your amp does not hum when the guitar is not plugged in.
If you want to test your solder joints in your guitar, which I do not believe is your problem, you can pull out the electronics panel and with the guitar plugged in and the amp on, take a pencil and tap tour solder joints and move the wires to see if you hear any change in the hum.
If you hear any change in the hum, you have found a bad solder joint.
Of course you cannot test the pickups using this method, but you can tap of the surface of the pickups with a pick, to see if vibration can cause any change in the hum.


I'll try that, because I'm sure it's not pedals, cables or the amp. I've tested the entire system and I keep coming back to either the guitar itself or electrical interference.


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Post subject: Re: Am Deluxe - 60 cycle hum / ground loop?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:40 am
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I edited my post after you posted.


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