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Post subject: Telecaster cost
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:23 pm
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This is certainly not a technical question.

I bought my first Fender guitar in the mid 1960s. I year later, I bought a Bassman amp. I think the total cost of the two was about $500. I went to work for Electro-Voice in the mid 70s as their advertising manager. A few years later two of my product engineers left to work for Fender. During a subsequent NAMM show I had the opportunity to visit them at the Fender factory. It was a great experience.

At one point one of the two disclosed the profit margin on the guitar production line. It was not out of line with what I was doing with Electro-Voice speakers. Which, by the way, I used to refit the speakers in my Bassman.

So what does this all boil down to? I'm in the market for a Telecaster. I got an email tonight for a Tele manufactured from Korina wood that retails at $1999! Really? I'm thinking what my first one cost. Then I add in inflation. Then I multiply that times two. And I'm still at about 1/4 the price of exotic Tele's.

I really find it difficult to tell where the value lies. The base Tele can be had at the local Guitar Center for about $399. And they go up from there. Perhaps you can enlighten me.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:41 pm
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Inflation Calculator

It's hard to know from your post if you mean the price you are seeing now is high or low. Kind of ambiguous.
I'm assuming you think it costs too much.
Use the link above to re-do your inflation math.

In 1965 the price of a new Fender varied between 279 and 349
We'll call it 320 for the sake of argument.
That comes to a little over $2,400
Now add Korina wood which was not available on any production Fender at the time and would certainly fall under the heading of Custom One Off.
If inflation is the issue then I think you're getting an absolute scream of a deal if the price is anything below $2K and still a fair price if it's a little over $2K.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:49 pm
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I think you misinterpret the concept of price inflation. Your chart and concept are correct when it comes to constant dollars. But it totally ignores manufacturing and technology advances. In constant dollars a Motorola "brick" which sold for $2000 in 1982 would be selling for tens of thousands today. Instead we have smartphones selling for less than $100 that do do more than was ever dreamed of.

I was simply asking the Fender people what they consider a good value point. That may be unfair because their job is not selling value, but selling profit. And that comes with selling guitars that have features, such as exotic woods, that somebody who is only interested in buying a quality, playable guitar is probably not interested in.

I appreciate your thoughts. But they didn't answer my question.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:15 pm
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One factor is that wood is getting more scarce, and tonewood even more so.

That said, Korina isn't a particularly great tonewood. It's not a wood at all, actually. It's a trademark for any wood the trademark holder (Gibson) wants to call Korina, commonly West African limba wood. Given that Korina is the name of a South American tribe, the trade name is somewhat deceptive.
Limba wood is plentiful and cheap, and rather soft for guitar use, and has bad resistance against insect or moisture damage. I'd avoid it altogether, no matter what "mojo" certain 50s guitars made with it are alleged to have.

As for "exotic woods", remember that exotic just means that it's not domestic; there are no implications of quality or rarity when calling something exotic.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:25 pm
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I disagree with your logic but you're free to think whatever you like.

I was referring to a regular production made in USA guitar because I assume there is nothing out of the ordinary about your guitar and that it was a regular production guitar. Guitars aren't like electronics. They don't become obsolete and have the bottom drop out of the price because they're just soooo last week. You will end up pulling your hair out if you insist on thinking of it in those terms.

Welcome to the forum by the way. You'll find good night info here.

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:31 pm
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rtrooney wrote:
It was not out of line with what I was doing with Electro-Voice speakers. Which, by the way, I used to refit the speakers in my Bassman.


SRO's in your Bassman? I had them in an old Twin.

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:03 pm
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If we disagree, at least it's a friendly disagreement. Let me take another tack.

In 1963 I bought a brand new guitar from an estate sale. It wasn't a Fender, but a portion of the model number was 335. It was built in Kalamazoo in 1958. I sold it in 1972 for five times what I paid for it, and was a very happy camper. Of course what I sold it for was about 1/40th of what that guitar fetches now.

I recently saw the current version of that guitar at my local Guitar Center. It was priced at about $1700. I consider that to be a "replica" guitar. And, possibly, slightly overpriced at that. Although it did look good.

Perhaps I'm looking at the current line of throwback Fenders in the same way. I'm looking at them as replica guitars that simply aren't worth the price point.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:01 pm
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My take on this is simple - if people buy them, they're worth it.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:44 am
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Can't really see where you're coming from on this. If we agree that the cost of a new 'standard' off-the-shelf (i.e. not a custom colour or one-off trade job) Fender in (say) 1965 was $320 and the equivalent instrument today is $1700, that seems to me like we're getting the better deal. You need to think what $320 bought you in 1965 (and how long it took you to make it) and compare that to the $1700 today.

Incidentally, list prices for Fenders in the early days (certainly prior to the CBS takeover) were usually quoted for the guitar only, exclusive of hard case, and the case often cost you about 10% of the guitar. The current American stuff (mostly) comes with case included.

I am convinced the current stuff (excluding the custom shop specials) from both Fender and Gibson is cheaper now than it was fifty years ago. I remain to be convinced it is exactly the same quality...


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:12 am
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I think overall the quality has improved. Lots of folks forget that back in the day there was a whole lot more inconsistency, particularly with pickup winding and body and neck shaping. That made it far more important back then to play every guitar in the store and pick the best one.

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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:37 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I think overall the quality has improved. Lots of folks forget that back in the day there was a whole lot more inconsistency, particularly with pickup winding and body and neck shaping. That made it far more important back then to play every guitar in the store and pick the best one.


Agreed. But keep in mind that when the quality is inconsistent, you get more of both worse and better products. The tail of the gaussian distribution curve gets shorter on both sides as consistency increases.
So everything else being equal, the 50s/60s would have more horrible guitars, but also a few exceptional specimens which you just won't find today with the stricter consistency.

Overall, many things have indeed improved. We don't have screws that immediately rust, pickguards that shrink, and cold solders that come loose. And the lubrication for machines is a heck of a lot better than what they used before (grease and tallow mix?). String quality has mostly gone up too. Getting an occasional bad string wasn't uncommon, but now it is.

But a few things have become worse too, in part due to premium materials no longer being available or affordable, but also more of a rush, with wood that hasn't dried for half a decade, and QA that's done "by the book", missing problems that aren't in the book.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:47 pm
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I've never owned a Tele, but I think the discussion can apply to Strats as well. As I recall, I bought my 1966 brand new production Strat. for $380 in November 1966. This was a lot of money. A brand new upper end auto was around $3,000 for comparison.

For the 1st time in many years, I went shopping for the Strat. that would have been an equivalent replacement for my 1966. Not vintage. My 2014 American Standard Strat. is in so many ways superior. Ordering the same 3 color SB, RW, it's stunning. Pickups, bridge, tuners, neck, frets, finish and even the plastic doesn't compare. It's not made overseas, but in the USA.

OK, so I paid $1,250 for my current guitar which is not chump change by any means. Am I happy? You bet. To me, it's the best bargain on the planet. Perhaps comparing cars to guitars is not right, but it's what I know. The car is 8 times more and the guitar is 3 times more. The 1966 car I speak of is loaded for the day (power windows, etc). Maybe men's suits would be a better comparison. My point is, while I was buying my guitar, I thought these things really haven't increased in price compared to everything else. There are so many variables and I am no expert. However, I have been an accountant all my life and am somewhat familiar with these things.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:05 pm
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I'm sure people who owned pre-CBS Fender guitars feel the same way as those who owned pre-Chicago Music Gibson guitars.

Nothing was as good "after" as it was "before." May or may not be true depending on the individual guitar. It's also probably true that some things, e.g. pickups are probably better. Or if not better, certainly more consistent. It's also possible that some early pickups would not pass inspection today, but they had such a unique sound, that they became the de facto standard.

I won't call it caving. But I am starting to come around to the concept that a Tele costing four times as much in 2016 may be a better value than some, not all, Teles manufactured in an earlier era.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:31 pm
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rtrooney wrote:
If we disagree, at least it's a friendly disagreement. Let me take another tack.

In 1963 I bought a brand new guitar from an estate sale. It wasn't a Fender, but a portion of the model number was 335. It was built in Kalamazoo in 1958. I sold it in 1972 for five times what I paid for it, and was a very happy camper. Of course what I sold it for was about 1/40th of what that guitar fetches now.

I recently saw the current version of that guitar at my local Guitar Center. It was priced at about $1700. I consider that to be a "replica" guitar. And, possibly, slightly overpriced at that. Although it did look good.

Perhaps I'm looking at the current line of throwback Fenders in the same way. I'm looking at them as replica guitars that simply aren't worth the price point.


A 335 for $1700 is a steal as the 58 'replicas' are probably in the $3000+ range. The current manufacturers take shortcuts to get the price down and the more expensive models have more work done by hand and are made in the USA. Many of the most affordable models are made In other countries.


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Post subject: Re: Telecaster cost
Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:04 pm
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I did buy a standard Tele from Sweetwater. It was made in Mexico. I've played it/compared it with a variety of Teles at my local Guitar Center. Aside from the sound of the custom shop pickups, I really can't tell that much of a difference. If I really feel a need to, I suppose I can switch pickups sometime in the future. But, for now, no need. I still think the high-end Teles are overpriced.


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