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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:36 am
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Leo Fender as an engineer believed in using what was available as much as possible.

Face the fact: you've never talked to Leo Fender about it all. So there's no way you'd know what he thought for sure. This statement is just your interpretation, just your belief, and my opinion this is a great misconception and misunderstanding...

Quote:
A simple upgrade is to replace the wood screws with brass wood inserts and fine machine threaded bolts

This is unqualified tweaking. People who think they know better than Leo Fender end up like this.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:30 am
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"First and foremost, whether it's a $200 Squier or a $4000 Custom Shop, the "best" guitar is simply the guitar that you enjoy and play the most...period."

How true.....and even though I love my new MIA stat and Carvin bolt w/stainless frets, I pulled out my old 51 Squire today and took it around the track a few times.
Can't believe how good that old stock guitar sounds and pays.
Sometimes i think we (myself included) are always thinking that the grass is greener.
But that's how guitar manufacturers stay in business.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:37 am
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"A simple upgrade is to replace the wood screws with brass wood inserts and fine machine threaded bolts."

Although I've never had a reason to this yet, it WOULD make sense if my holes were ready to strip.
But I've done a lifetime of modding....and neck replacements, and am now more appreciable of a GOOD stock guitar.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:21 pm
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am now more appreciable of a GOOD stock guitar

Good. That is how people who're able to admit their mistakes end up. This is a good result.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:09 pm
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neteraser wrote:
Quote:
am now more appreciable of a GOOD stock guitar

Good. That is how people who're able to admit their mistakes end up. This is a good result.


Actually....along with a few mistakes, i've actually also had some very good results.
But....it is the TIME that I finally realize that I don't want to expend on such projects anymore.

That said, making a number of partscasters DOES give one a good knowledge base.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:13 pm
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neteraser wrote:
Quote:
Leo Fender as an engineer believed in using what was available as much as possible.

Face the fact: you've never talked to Leo Fender about it all. So there's no way you'd know what he thought for sure. This statement is just your interpretation, just your belief, and my opinion this is a great misconception and misunderstanding...

Quote:
A simple upgrade is to replace the wood screws with brass wood inserts and fine machine threaded bolts

This is unqualified tweaking. People who think they know better than Leo Fender end up like this.


Dude! Both of the above statements are fairly well documented. The details readily available demonstrate how Leo worked and ran his business. Statements from those who worked for Leo would suggest the comment above is entirely reasonable.

The physical properties of screws are also indisputable. The best option to replace over large screw holes (in my opinion as a qualified woodworking professional) is to use threaded inserts. However, a better option is don't remove the screws in the first place.

With regard to your argument of my previous post, I don't understand what you are saying (unless you are just seeking to be argumentative). Perhaps the point I was trying to make was too ambiguous?

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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:51 am
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Without going through too many responses...

What separates a Special from a Standard...

Jumbo Frets
Texas Specials
Large 70's Headstock
Six Point Trem
Grease Bucket Tone Control
Non-Staggered Tuners
(seems to only be available with a Maple Fretboard)

So if we break it down, the tone will sound different between the controls and the pickups. The Jumbo frets may feel funny since they are tall and wide.

The tremolo and tuners are really more about preference.

Headstock shape purely asesthetic.

You'll have to try them both.

Also, if the Specials are like the Highway 1's, the fretboard edges and fret ends may not be as smooth as the Standards....

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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:11 am
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neteraser wrote:
Quote:
Leo Fender as an engineer believed in using what was available as much as possible.

Face the fact: you've never talked to Leo Fender about it all. So there's no way you'd know what he thought for sure. This statement is just your interpretation, just your belief, and my opinion this is a great misconception and misunderstanding...

Quote:
A simple upgrade is to replace the wood screws with brass wood inserts and fine machine threaded bolts

This is unqualified tweaking. People who think they know better than Leo Fender end up like this.


First off, I have to point out that the second part of this comment comes of sounding rather hypocritical...you first suggest that magnatone can't know the mind of our founding forefather (even though as someone else said, it's well documented), but then make a comment that suggests that you do.

Second, the second portion of your comment suggests that only Leo himself had any right to do "tweaking"...which personally I consider quite offensive. It certainly doesn't consider that a fair number of rather famous instruments were either heavily modded (i.e. David Gilmore's "Black Strat") or partscasters (i.e. Clapton's "Blackie") to begin with. While I don't really know what you would consider to be qualified or unqualified, personally I've been a guitar player for over 30 years now and for the vast majority of those years, I've done my own repairs, tweaks, upgrades, refinishes, etc...I've even cut a few of my own bodies. From simple mods such as bridge & tuner replacements to more extensive work such as neck swaps and routing bodies for additional pickups or hardware...let's just say that I've been around the block MORE than just a few times.

Based on that alone, magnatone's suggestion is in fact sound. The fact of the matter is that a fair number of people do this particular mod quite successfully, as some feel that it's one way to "brighten" the sound of a Strat (along with brass nuts, brass trem blocks, etc). I've also known at least one person who did this mod because he travels a lot...taking the neck off his guitar and stashing the neck & body in a suitcase is more cost effective for him than paying freight and duty on the instrument every time he travels. Now personally I don't care for the brass...I'd actually opt for a plug and re-drill should such need ever arise, but the brass insert method is again quite sound...it's NOT "unqualified tweaking" as you suggest.

To be blunt, your comments seem to proceed from the assumption that only Leo Fender, or at the very least, the company he created, would be qualified to work on or modify the instruments that bear his name...you couldn't be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is that part of what made Leo so great was the fact that he dared to be different, thought outside the box and was willing to experiment...and dare I say, "tinker", otherwise no one would know the names "Telecaster" (or Broadcaster, Nocaster and Esquire), "Stratocaster" or the "Precision Bass". Certainly a great many of us have carried on that innovative tradition by building and modding our own instruments...my favorite Strat is a '96 Standard that I've heavily modified over the years.

Your comments also seem to suggest that an "unspoiled" instrument is somehow desirable to one that's been modified. Certainly some folks are indeed happy with "off the rack", however personally I'd rather have an instrument that's been tailored to my own tastes. I'm a unique individual with a unique playing style...I have no desire at all to sound like every other schmoe out there (no offense to you schmoe's out there, LOL) and as such, I think my instruments should be as singularly unique as I am. Further, as I have the skills to modify my own instruments to my own liking, I see no reason why I shouldn't do so...they are, after all, MY instruments.

Regardless, as John Sims there states, much of Leo's thinking regarding his designs and how he ran his business - this stuff is well documented. Leo's use of a bolt on neck for example was the result of guitars being so expensive to repair back in the day. While this isn't an exact quote, George Fullerton once wrote that the thinking (at the time) was that the neck of the guitar was the most likely part of the guitar to have problems and in that day and age, a musician usually had to send the guitar back to the factory for such repairs which were both expensive and left the musician without their instrument for weeks or even months at a time. Because guitar players usually only had 1 guitar back then, it also left said musician without a source of income until the guitar was returned. Now if you wish to suggest that George Fullerton didn't know what Leo Fender was thinking at the time.....

At the risk of being perfectly blunt, before you suggest that people can't "know what he thought for sure", perhaps you should do just a bit of research before making such a statement. There's A LOT that's been written about brother Leo...it's well worth reading.

Beyond that, like magnatone, I too would have to disagree with just about everything you posted regarding lemon oil, screw holes or leaving your guitar apart....

- The fact of the matter is that a great many of us do use lemon oil (or some variation) on our fretboards without any adverse effects what so ever...personally I use a fine furniture polish, such as Old English. In instances where I've done restorations, I've even used boiled linseed oil, naptha and even acetone to remove severe gunk...works fine. Beyond that, when you consider how many classical musicians use lemon oil on their instruments (violins being a prime example), not to mention those who do in fact deal with fine furniture...it shouldn't be THAT hard to figure out.

- Drilling and sanding adversely affects the sound of the instrument????? I'm not even sure I should qualify such a comment by responding to it, but the truth is A LOT of us have some extra holes in our beloved axes. Often this is a result of changing tuners or other hardware, pickguards, etc.. One of my Strats has a couple of extra holes because I decided to put my Roland synth pickup on a different guitar...didn't hurt a damn thing. On a vintage instrument this -may- affect the value, however unless you're taking a serious chunk of wood out of the body with a router (which, btw, I've also done), a few extra screw holes doesn't affect the sound at all. No, I wouldn't suggest someone go removing their neck every other day, however the truth is that I've had MANY of the necks off my guitars - in some cases, repeatedly. I have yet to actually have a problem with this. Even -if- one should completely strip out those screw holes, there's a number of ways to suitably rectify the situation...it's just not that difficult and again it's not going to affect the sound (give or take the aforementioned use of brass). Sorry dude, but a few extra screw holes does NOT affect the sound.

And as far as sanding goes, considering the rather resilient nature of many of the poly finishes that are used today, some could easily argue that removing some of that finish only IMPROVES the sound, as it lets the body "breath" a bit (although even that has been debatable at best). In this instance I can also speak from experience...I have a '95 Mexican Standard that had been chewed on by a dog (not one of my dogs...I bought the guitar that way). I had considered leaving it like that when I bought it because in some ways it actually looked rather cool (LOL), however the bite marks left some sharp edges in the finish, so I finally broke down and sanded it out...sorry dude, but NO adverse affects to the tone AT ALL. And if you REALLY want to debate the issue, perhaps we sound bring Stevie Ray Vaughn's "#1" into the discussion 8) .

...and by the way, while I don't care for them personally, that doesn't even account for the factory finishes that come pre-worn, such as the Roadworn series or the relics that Fender (and other companies) have produced, as well as the "thin" finishes of Fender models such as the Highway 1 series.

- Leaving the body and neck apart. Dude...not to be rude, but are you even aware of HOW guitars are made? It's not unheard of for a company such as Fender to produce guitars made from bodies and necks that may have been cut and finished several MONTHS apart....it's the nature of such mass produced products. Necks/bodies can very well sit on a warehouse shelf for a long time before they're actually assembled and in most cases, there's a better than average chance that you'll find different date stamps between the neck and body. You comment suggests that you believe all necks were cut for the specific bodies you find them on (or vice-versa) when again that just couldn't be further from the truth.

Beyond this is the fact that a great many of us ARE builders and tinkerers. I won't speak for others, but personally I do have a small stack of bodies downstairs and a decent stash of assorted necks...waiting for the day I decide to put together another project guitar. I pick up pieces/parts here and there and every now and again, at the muses decent, I'll slap something together, often just for my own amusement. There is perhaps SOME truth to the idea that if you remove a neck from a body and then store the neck and body in separate locations, that temperature and humidity can certainly play a factor in how well those fit back together (i.e. you stored the body in a cold dry basement and the neck in a warm humid room), however that has nothing specific to do with the neck and body being "apart"...it's simply the nature of wood. In other words, if you take the neck off, store it in the case with the body in an appropriate room, chances are there will be no issues with re-assembly regardless of how long they sat (assuming of course that tension was released on the truss rod due to the lack of string tension). What it comes down to is simply how well the neck and body fit together, regardless of how long they were apart, whether they were separately made or whether they're even of the same brand....either they fit together well or they don't.


I'm not trying to be deliberately rude and you are certainly welcome to your own opinions...until experience teaches you otherwise, but frankly, a lot of what you posted just isn't true.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:22 am
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53magnatone wrote:
Leo Fender as an engineer believed in using what was available as much as possible.


This is dead right!
I never met Leo Fender, but I have met someone who worked for Fender a while back, and he used to pop over regularly to see Leo over at G&L.
They used to discuss the reasons behind why things were done the way they were all the time.
The man I'm talking about is Trevor Wilkinson.

It's no coincidence that the Telecaster body is the thickness that it is.
It's as thick as it is because the timber used was thicknessed for supply to the furniture industry.
The Telecaster body was left that thick because it kept the cost of guitar production down.

The timbers used were all readily available at the furniture timber suppliers, and Ash and Alder were not all that expensive.
Pine was cheaper still, so Leo used Pine on some of the early Esquire and Broadcaster development guitars just to keep the cost down.

The pickup in the Esquire, and later on the Broadcaster, was the same one Leo developed for the lap steel guitars that preceded the "Spanish" style guitars of the late 1940s and early 1950s.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:52 pm
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When I was in the market for an upgrade to my 20 year old Fender Stratocaster Squier, I choose the Fender American Special Stratocaster because it had Texas Special pickups, a large 70's style headstock with maple neck, came in a two-tone sunburst and was in my price range (less than $1000).

The American Standard just did not have the features that I wanted in a Stratocaster and was outside my price range.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:07 pm
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I suggest you play both guitars and judge for yourself which one plays and sounds better "to you". I have several American standards, deluxe, 57' reissues, Highway ones and Specials. My favorite is a candy apple red American special strat with stock Texas Special Pickups.

Here is demo of my new Marshall DSL40C with the American Special Strat. This amp really matches this strat, has that classic 60s marshall and strat combo tone IMHO.



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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:57 am
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Hmmm - still confused after all this chat! Why is the Am Special so cheap? In sterling we're talking about £750 instead of £1100, roughly.

I realise it has a gig bag (in England anyway) instead of a hard case, but the remainder of the parts seem to be AmStd spec or equivalent, so where's the cost-cutting been done?

I'm keen on the Special because they do Surf Green, but only otherwise buy Standards and am suspicious of things that seem too good to be true!


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:55 pm
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An interesting question and I do think we have the values skewed a bit in the UK if you compare the dollar prices.

The main differences seem to be gig bag not hard case, almost £100 there. Vintage trem not two post, apparently that's about £50 difference but I have no idea why. Pickups, but they can only be £100 variation.

Based on that either the Special is great value or the Standard is over priced.

Does Standard have microtilt as well where Special doesn't?

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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:23 pm
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John Sims wrote:
Does Standard have microtilt as well where Special doesn't?


That is true.

I think these are the differences between the American Special and the American Standard:

1. Trem bridge is 6-screw instead of 2-post (but not the American Vintage steel-block 6-screw trem)
2. Regular truss rod instead of Bi-Flex truss rod
3. Uniform-height tuners instead of staggered-height tuners (may or may not be a cost difference here)
4. No micro-tilt instead of micro-tilt neck attachment
5. No rolled fingerboard edges instead of rolled fingerboard edges
6. Production-line pickups instead of Custom Shop pickups (I don't believe the Am Special has CS Texas Specials)
7. Gig bag instead of hard case

Not a lot of differences, not sure if they add up to $300 worth of difference.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Stratocaster American Standard or Special?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:38 am
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Thanks to both Johns - very interesting!

So there are a fair few differences, some of which are more important to me than others. The trem and p/ups sound a bit suspect (for a US Fender) and the fingerboard edges do indeed smack of cost-cutting. I suppose when you add them all up it must come to a few bob / dollars. I never knew there were 2 types of Texas Special - don't like the sound of that!

And John S, I think you may be right that it's down to the usual UK pricing policy, but I just checked and the surf green Special can readily be had for less than £700 in England. That really does seem (too) cheap for a US-made Fender, doesn't it?!

Cheers - Peter.


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