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Post subject: Question about the MIM Standard Strat
Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:53 am
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Are there any differences in the 2012 model, and 2014/2015 models?

The reason I ask, is because I have been looking at new MIM Standards...and (to me) there are differences in the 'feel' compared to my 2012 model. And "set-up" aside...I also notice a difference in sound.

The newer models all feel a little lighter than my 2012, and the pickups seem to bring out a little more 'highs'.

I suppose it MAY be because I have tinkered with (and bonded with) my 2012, and fine tuned/set the guitar to my liking in the past 3 years or so. But for some reason the newer models I've played are not even coming close enough to give me reason to believe I will be able to make adjustments to match. Or does it just take time for ANY guitar to settle into its' mojo?

I completely understand that no 2 guitars are exactly alike---but I'd like to get 'close'. I am looking to buy another MIM Standard to use as a "back up" for my 2012, but as I shop around, I'm starting to wonder if I'd have better luck buying a used 2012 off ebay or Reverb or Guitar Center?
I'd prefer to have brand new...but I need some sort of assurance that I will eventually dial the thing in to what my current Strat can do.

Am I crazy? Is it me? Or has something changed in the guitars in the past few years? You can be honest...a lot of people have called me crazy. LOL


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Post subject: Re: Question about the MIM Standard Strat
Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 7:05 am
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Well, there's actually a few things to consider here...

No...I'm not going to say your crazy at all, however I will say that human perception when it comes to something like a guitar can indeed be a very tricky thing.

First and foremost, yes, it's been my experience that most brand new guitars do in fact take a while to "settle in". The thing to remember here is that these instruments are mass produced and while issues like quality control and consistency are better than ever these days, you're ultimately talking about a couple of slabs of kiln dried wood that have been bolted together. Aside from the obvious issues about how wood ages, it's worth remembering that even though the wood is kiln dried, there could still be a difference regarding moisture content. As an extreme example, consider a piece of recently kiln dried wood compared with a chunk of lumber that's been aged naturally over the course of 50 to 100 years...in instrument making terms, there's gonna be a HUGE difference. Even a matter of just 2 years can certainly have an impact depending on the individual instrument.

Now along with this, lets address some perceptual issues. I would ask here; did you take your old guitar with you and compare them side by side or did you just walk into a music store and think "hey...this feels and sounds different"? Remember, ANY guitar is likely to sound quite different sitting on a show room floor than it does in your own house/studio. Likewise, are you playing both guitars thru the exact same amp? Like "the room", playing thru a different amp is certainly going to make the guitar sound different. In a case such as this, I would suggest taking your current guitar AND your amp with you when you go into the music store so that you can do a direct side by side comparison.

Along with that, while you mentioned setup, another thing to consider regarding "sound" is pickup height. In other words, on the new guitars you've played, how were the pickups setup when compared with your current instrument? Remember that changing the pickup height will usually have an impact on tone...while you loose some volume, if you move the pickups further from the strings, you can usually get a more acoustic like (dare I say "woodsy") tone with many electrics. Conversely, moving the pickups closer to the strings will typically give the guitar more "punch". Even when using two otherwise identical sets of pickups on two otherwise identical guitars, when doing a comparison, yes just by moving the pickups up on one instrument and back on the other, this can make them sound quite different from one another.

I would also suggest that "feel" can be a perceptual thing as well. I don't deny that something has changed with Fender necks over the years and that not all "C" profiles are exactly identical...probably why I have a personal fondness for the mid 90's MIM's (to me the older Mexicans do feel better). That said, I would ask if you've had (or done) any specific work to your current instrument? Fret work perhaps? You've said you've done some tinkering and some fine tuning...you'll have to decide for yourself how much of a roll that has played. Again I would suggest the direct side by side comparison...and in this case, keep in mind anything that you may have done to your current instrument.

Also on the concept of feel, I would ask how much you've played your 2012? While this is probably a tad subjective, personally I believe that a "well played" instrument feels better than a new one. I can't really rationalize this with any specific fact or data, but in this regard to me a good guitar is a lot a pair of good leather shoes in that they just feel better after they've been "broken in a bit".

Now as far as the weight of the instruments go, I can't really say whether or not one particular "vintage" of Strat is lighter or heavier than another. Even when assuming the same body woods and all other things being exactly identical, it's worth remembering that being an organic substance, there CAN be a variance in weight between 2 pieces of the same species of wood. In terms of something like a Strat and assuming we're talking about alder exclusively, yes, there can in fact be a few pounds variance between 2 otherwise identical instruments. Most weigh in around 7'ish pounds, but some can be much lighter and a few can certainly be heavier as well. While most consider ash to be a fairly light weight wood, I have a certain tele made from swamp ash where the body alone weighs in at over 8 lbs! I'm not sure that this is so much about the given year an instrument was made as much as the specific piece of wood that was used in a given guitar at the time. With this said however, again I'd suggest the side by side comparison...for many people it's VERY easy to mis-judge something like weight if you're holding 1 guitar in your house and another across town at a music store.


Once you've done those side by side comparisons (assuming you haven't already), if you're still not happy with the newer instruments, than personally I think buying used is certainly a viable option. Obviously when dealing with used instruments, -some- degree of caution is well warranted...in other words, KNOW what you are looking at. Personally I will NOT buy a guitar, new used or otherwise off Ebay or any other source where I can't inspect/play it FIRST (parts, yes - guitar...NO). That said, most music stores these day...even the BIG chains like Guitar Center and Sam Ash, usually carry some used instruments. Goodness knows I've gotten more than a few off Craigslist in recent years as well (most notably my Artcore, my Ovation Standard Balladeer and my MIJ Jazz bass - all came from Craigslist ads as did my guitar synth). In fact, of the 10 Strats I currently own, only 2 were purchased new. Seriously, the majority of my instruments (including my drums and a lot of my PA gear) were all purchased used. Buying used typically has 3 major advantages - price, price and PRICE! LOL! Using Guitar Center as a specific example, a brand new MIM goes for $500 (barring sales, special runs, etc) where as you can usually pickup a similar used MIM Strat that may still be in pristine condition for around $300...I won't speak for others, but in my world, that $200 is a fair chunk of coin. In fact, because the guitar was a bit beat on (actually looked like she was chewed on by a dog), after some haggling and calling in a favor from the manager, I walked out of my local GC with my '95 MIM for $125! Again, buying used does require a degree of caution...if you're interested in an MIM for example, than KNOW what you are looking at. KNOW the difference between an MIM, an MIA and a Squier, etc - I have seen one or two bogus Strats over the years even at the large stores. However if you're willing to educate yourself, YES...you can pick up some rather spankin' deals if you're willing to be patient and shop around a little. Ain't nothing wrong with a decent used Strat 8) .

Ok...not sure if that really answers your question, but hopefully it will give you a few things to consider...good luck!


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Post subject: Re: Question about the MIM Standard Strat
Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:39 pm
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Thanks lomitus. I have in deed brought my guitar along to compare on the same amp, and I also carry a depth marker to compare and match the height of each pickup. One thing I do not do is adjust the saddles on the guitar I am trying out....but I try and grab one that has the action set as close to mine as possible.
One thing I can attribute to sound (now that I think of it) is difference in strings. My question in this area was more along the lines of has anything changed with the pickups and electronics since 2012.

Now that you've explained the difference in wood and wood drying, that makes sense on the variations in weight; but if all the bodies are Alder and all the necks are Maple (and Maple fretboard)---why are all the 2014/15's lighter than mine? Shouldn't atleast one or two that I hold be as heavy or heavier than mine (unless I have a freakishly heavy one....I've never actually weighed it).

On "feel", I'm not comparing the smoothness of my 2012 to a barely/never played new guitar, because yes, I have played the H.E. Double toothpicks out of mine and it is broke-in very nicely; I completely agree a well played guitar feels better.....I am more curious about the finish, and the hardness of the neck (I know....sounds strange, but I don't know how to explain it)---so in this case, the "feel" I am speaking of is the actual feel of the materials rather than the feel of the action.

Quote:
Ok...not sure if that really answers your question, but hopefully it will give you a few things to consider...good luck!
Actually, you have helped me AND given me things to consider, and I thank you for that. 8)


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Post subject: Re: Question about the MIM Standard Strat
Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 8:19 am
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White Dog wrote:
Thanks lomitus. I have in deed brought my guitar along to compare on the same amp, and I also carry a depth marker to compare and match the height of each pickup. One thing I do not do is adjust the saddles on the guitar I am trying out....but I try and grab one that has the action set as close to mine as possible.
One thing I can attribute to sound (now that I think of it) is difference in strings. My question in this area was more along the lines of has anything changed with the pickups and electronics since 2012.

Now that you've explained the difference in wood and wood drying, that makes sense on the variations in weight; but if all the bodies are Alder and all the necks are Maple (and Maple fretboard)---why are all the 2014/15's lighter than mine? Shouldn't atleast one or two that I hold be as heavy or heavier than mine (unless I have a freakishly heavy one....I've never actually weighed it).

On "feel", I'm not comparing the smoothness of my 2012 to a barely/never played new guitar, because yes, I have played the H.E. Double toothpicks out of mine and it is broke-in very nicely; I completely agree a well played guitar feels better.....I am more curious about the finish, and the hardness of the neck (I know....sounds strange, but I don't know how to explain it)---so in this case, the "feel" I am speaking of is the actual feel of the materials rather than the feel of the action.


Well I can't really speak to as to whether something has changed with the pickup designs or not. It does seem as though Fender has changed something with pickups here and there since the introduction of the MIM's in general...while I prefer the feel of the mid 90's MIM's, I still think the pickups on those things are really bad and I've played a number of newer MIM's that do sound significantly better. I also know that at some point they also started putting larger trem blocks on the MIM's (although still a zinc alloy from what I've seen) which again suggests that these instruments are in fact prone to occasional design changes (and I would add that trem blocks do certainly have a significant roll in tone and sustain). So yes, it is certainly possible that something has changed as far as the pickups between the years we're discussing. That said however, I would also add that those are easy enough to change as well....of my 10 Strats, only two of them have their original pickups (and one of those is currently for sale).

On that issue alone, should you decide to go with new, I suspect that it shouldn't be too hard to locate a set of 2012 MIM pickups on Ebay, Craigslist, etc., and put those in the new guitar...it would be interesting to see if and/or how much of a difference this would make.

As far as the body and neck wood goes, if I had to take a stab at it, I might say that it has something to do with the nature of mass production. While I've never been on a tour of any Fender facility, I strongly suspect that lumber comes in on pallets in rather large quantities and the factories purchase of the lumber is probably based on cost, availability and other such production considerations...one of the reasons that I suspect many of the 90's MIM's were made from poplar instead of alder. As we've already said, alder (or maple for that matter) can vary in weight from slab to slab. In addition, alder, being from the birch family has 30 sub-species as well (according to the almighty wikipedia)...aldus incana, alnus maritima, alnus rhombifolia, etc.. The same goes for maple as well...according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, there are "about 200 species" of maple (lovetoknow.com says 125 identified species with around 95 sub-species). While it's tempting to believe that a given Strat made with an "alder body and maple neck" should weigh the same as the next, there's a great deal more to consider there. In other words, it's very possible that a given lot of lumber used in one year may have a different density and moisture content and such thus, a different weight than one from a few years later (or earlier) depending on what was available at the time of production and how cheaply the lumber could be obtained for.

It's worth remembering that Fender is indeed a large global company and the instruments that we cherish are in fact, mass-produced, assembly line products (barring custom shop of course). As such, these products are of course subject to the materials available, production & material costs, etc., so even if there aren't any specific design changes from one year to another, some degree of variance can still be expected. As with wine, some vintages may simply be better than others 8) .

That said, yes, it is also quite possible that you have a "freakishly heavy one" as well. In this case it's worth noting that I have an '08 CIC Squier Standard...they day I bought her, they had 2 on the sales floor and indeed this one seemed a pound or two heavier than the other. In fact, I've had a couple of people comment now on the weight of that particular guitar in that she just feels really heavy on the strap compared with other Strats. Again I also have a swamp ash tele body that is just insanely heavy as well. So yea...you just may have a particularly heavy 2012...it happens.

Likewise regarding the materials used in finish and such, it is quite possible that something has changed there...however that could also be a matter of how the materials age as well. Again I would refer to my preference for mid 90's MIM Strats in that I truly love the way these feel compared with newer Strats (not saying the newer Strats are "bad" but I do prefer the older Strats). Did they change something in the chemicals used to make the finishes? Did they change the thickness of the finishes? Is it simply that they feel better after they have aged a while? Rather hard to say. I do know that the necks on my '95 and my '96 are nearly identical in feel...I -seriously- doubt I could tell the difference just by feel alone (without groping for the nicks in dings that I know are on the back of the '96, LOL!). That said, my '93 feels even better still and I suspect that I could probably feel the difference with that neck compared to the others (although I may have to test that theory as some later time). I also love the feel of the finish on my '87 MIJ (however I'm not as crazy about the '62 profile as I am over the 90's MIM's). In this case we're talking about instruments that are 20 to 30 years old, so there certainly COULD be some difference in the finishing materials, particularly when compared with my '99 and my '07, however it could equally be the age of the materials as well...generally speaking and subjective perception aside, the older my Strats are the better they seem to feel to me.

BTW...personally I believe that yes, strings can in fact play a rather significant roll regarding the sound (and even the feel). I think it's safe to say that most experienced players would agree that even the gauge of the string will affect both sound and feel. As an example, if someone were using D'adarrio .010's and picked up a new Strat which likely has Fender .009's, chances are the new Strat is going to sound brighter and thinner and the feel is likely to be a bit "mushy" in comparison. There's a good reason why so many of us have our preferred brand (and gauge) of strings.

Okies...just some more stuff to chew on. Hopefully someone else will come along and fill in some of the blanks there for you.


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Post subject: Re: Question about the MIM Standard Strat
Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 8:01 pm
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lomitus wrote:
... I also know that at some point they also started putting larger trem blocks on the MIM's (although still a zinc alloy from what I've seen) which again suggests that these instruments are in fact prone to occasional design changes ...

In 2007, they made a number of design changes including going to a trem block that is twice as heavy as 2006 and before. The heavier trem blocks are plug and play with the older (unchanged) bridge. For my '04 MIM Std, I got an '07 block off eBay and slapped it in ... Anyone with an older MIM should do it. Quick and easy.

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Post subject: Re: Question about the MIM Standard Strat
Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:51 am
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01GT eibach wrote:
In 2007, they made a number of design changes including going to a trem block that is twice as heavy as 2006 and before. The heavier trem blocks are plug and play with the older (unchanged) bridge. For my '04 MIM Std, I got an '07 block off eBay and slapped it in ... Anyone with an older MIM should do it. Quick and easy.


While it's a tad off topic, I do absolutely agree 110%. Those half size pot metal blocks found on older MIM's (and many/most Squiers) really suck the tone and sustain out of a Strat. With the older Strats, next to upgrading the pickups, upgrading the trem block is (in my never so humble opinion) the best mod a player can make to a Strat. Personally I prefer the Callaham trem blocks...even when compared with other steel blocks, the Callahams do seem considerably better than any other trem block I've ever used. That said, for the price difference I also have the Guitar Fetish blocks on several of my Strats and for the $22, they're still a significant upgrade to say the least. Any time I get a new or used Strat (or do a build), I -always- leave room in the budget for a new block.


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