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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:41 am
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All of the Strats I ever owned had the bent steel (or pot metal/spelt) saddles, until I got my new (1997, hah!) Strat earlier this year. This guitar plays and sounds as well, and maybe even better, than any Strat I've ever played, including my '72, and the '62 and '64 models past band buddies owned.
I gotta admit, I kinda like the block steel saddles on my new girl. They may not look "vintage", but they are more "streamlined", and seem to fit in aerodynamically with the looks of a Stratocaster.
Are they a major sonic improvement? I really haven't noticed that.
They do seem easier to adjust height and length-wise, and so far don't seem as susceptible to rusting/pitting/grooving as their older counterparts-bear in mind that even tho' new to me, they have been on this axe for 18 years already.
Why were they introduced? My guess is that they were one of the noticeably different "improvements" that came with 1987's first year of the "New Fender."
Why were they discontinued? Once again, my guess is that they were probably more expensive to produce, and demand for the retro/vintage/relic look came back into fashion.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:06 am
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John Sims wrote:
John C wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
I seriously doubt the block saddles are forged. Cast maybe.


I also believe they are cast; they aren't milled from a solid block or forged.


I took it that forged meant milled from a forged billet , as in "Forged cranks", " Forged con rods" I can't imagine Porsche visit their local blacksmith for components for their GT3s.

Any road up, I had assumed forged (milled from the solid billet) for all the goodness that the process includes - even if it is more expensive.

Cast is a bit naff and can introduce problems through poor casting - still not as cheap as stamping out from a bit of tin though.

I can't remember if the underside is hollow, which would be a give away. I don't think it is.


"Forging" is not "milling". Forged metal is created under heavy or extreme pressure, and the metal can be heated to help it be easier (more ductile) to forge into shape. Sometimes metal is "cold forged", so not heated.
Forging produces a strong end product that can be quite solid and dense.

"Milling" is done with machining/cutting a solid piece of metal. This method has a lot of waste, but is used when one needs to create more intricate shapes or fine details in the finished product than what forging can do.

"Stamping" is similar to forging in that pressure is used, but the pressure used is to cut/stamp out a shape.
The difference is that forging forces a piece of metal into a specific shape resulting in a dense product.
Stamping can still be a good solid product but that relies more so on the quality of stock metal and not the actual stamping process. The stamping is more a method by which to cut a shape from the metal stock, such as rolled metal.

"Powder metallurgy" appears to be how Fender creates the block saddles. Metal powder is placed into a die and then put under pressure and then heated. This creates the product. There is very little waste and is used for parts that may be more intricate than what machining can do. It allows for the creation of a large number of parts at lower cost. The powder process product is similar to a "cast" product. If the product is "repressed", or pressed a second time, it comes closer to the properties of wrought metal.
I don't know if Fender represses the block saddles.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:55 pm
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Rverb wrote:

....Forging produces a strong end product that can be quite solid and dense...


And there was me thinking it was down to molecular alignment.

While a passing interest if milled saddles would sound different (to pressed powder) I think there is good reason to consider the bent saddles could be advantageous over and above their economy of production - even if they don't have that lovely smooth feel of the blocks.

I am certainly feeling more love for the the bent steel saddles than when we started.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:17 am
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John, I can't say I'm very interested in the precise composition of the cast saddles! All my Strats ('91 - '06) have them and I have no problems as long as I've adjusted/replaced/modded the height screws so they aren't proud.

Which brings me to bent steel saddles. I love the look, but I've never played a Strat with them where the the height screws didn't dig into my picking hand. My first Strat (sold years ago) was a '79 so it must've had them, but I don't remember how/if I got round the comfort problem.

Seriously, does nobody have this problem with bent steel saddles? Never had a modern AmStd bridge (or vintage one) to bits, so is there sufficient thread length on the saddle to 'bury' the screws? If not, why is everyone except me perfectly happy with this feature?!


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:15 am
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Peter S wrote:
John, I can't say I'm very interested in the precise composition of the cast saddles! All my Strats ('91 - '06) have them and I have no problems as long as I've adjusted/replaced/modded the height screws so they aren't proud.

Which brings me to bent steel saddles. I love the look, but I've never played a Strat with them where the the height screws didn't dig into my picking hand. My first Strat (sold years ago) was a '79 so it must've had them, but I don't remember how/if I got round the comfort problem.

Seriously, does nobody have this problem with bent steel saddles? Never had a modern AmStd bridge (or vintage one) to bits, so is there sufficient thread length on the saddle to 'bury' the screws? If not, why is everyone except me perfectly happy with this feature?!

Stratocasters from the 1970s had diecast (pot metal-ish) type saddles.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:20 am
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Peter S wrote:

.... Seriously, does nobody have this problem with bent steel saddles?


My original Strat has block saddles. I liked/like everything about them.

I then played a friends MiM with bent saddles and they attacked me in exactly the way you described. I took an immediate dislike to them and vowed I would not be having them on any of my guitars.

I bought an FSR MiM and the bent saddles were nowhere near as bad as my friends, but I changed it for a block saddles as I'd already decided I would.

My latest (and perhaps favourite) Strat (MiA 10 for 15 Hardtail) has bent saddles and they don't seem to be an issue in any way. I had intended to change the bridge for a block bridge but now feel such an action would be sacrilege - and completely unnecessary.

I think the bent saddles are very much critical in grub screw choice. My friends were seemingly all the same length, where as mine have shorter screws on the outer saddles. Obviously there isn't the level of tolerance as on a block saddle but, once you have the correct height you aren't going to be changing it and it is very easy to swap out an over long grub screw for a shorter one.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 3:32 pm
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I've sort of been following this thread and something has come to me. Many people are concerned how the vintage saddles feel. I believe that a lot of this has to do with protruding adjustment screws. When I have adjustment screws that are too tall, my luthier cuts them down or replaces them with shorter ones. If this the chief complaint, problem solved.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:55 am
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Yes, Paris, you'll note I mentioned cutting/grinding the saddle screws down on the block saddles. And I agree, once set, you're not going to change the heights.

I realise you can do this on the bent steel saddles as well, but I assume you still need sufficient thread to 'bury' the potentially sharp ends - that's what I was asking really.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:32 pm
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With regard to the block saddles and grub screws:

I replaced original .009 gauge for .010s.

I had a set up and a couple of grub screws are now high and a minor irritant. I haven't had a chance to see the tech since the setup as he works PT and I have been a passing ship in the night. He does a great job and is well regarded.

My question is this:
Could the string gauge from 9s to 10s see a possible higher than normal grub screw height? (The screws were set up flush to the block saddles at first).

I'm assuming the pull on the neck would be more, but, that being said, would a neck adjustment compensate to keep the grubs in a similar flush position?

If the grub screws needed to be higher for one side, what are the chances that the neck may be out of alignment, twisted or otherwise? (Note: The axe plays well as is).

Your thoughts and experience?

TIA

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:34 am
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Your thoughts and experience?

The fatter strings pull more (= have more tension)
-> the neck bends more (=more relief) AND/OR the trem plate raises
-> the strings rise higher from the neck
-> you compensated this by lowering the saddles (= adjusting action)
-> the screws stick out more.
I'd say it's time to check (&readjust) the whole setup on the guitar, - your intonation may also be off, the nut slots should be checked, the trem springs may need adjusting etc; and most likely you have too much relief. (We've had an in-flames discussion on if a string gauge change requires a full setup, and the setup order on the Tele side - I'd say "your case" sorta supports my views :wink: )

The possible neck twist can't be evaluated on the forum - but my wild guess is, the neck is OK.

As a general side remark: way back when dinosaurs walked the earth, shimming the neck & raising the saddles was probably a more common fix for high sticking saddle screws than grinding the screws shorter. (This trick still works, on both bent and block saddles.)


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:56 am
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Fender do the grub screw in a variety of lengths (well at least two).

Tip of the week -grinding little grub screws can provide hours of fun when they jump from you fingers into the dark corners of your workshop (or go to the parallel universe where one of two socks live).

Screw them into an old block saddle projecting just the amount you want to remove and then grind or file down to the face of the old saddle.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:42 am
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I can't imagine why anyone would want to grind down those little screws when new ones are so cheap. :?:

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:06 am
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Thanks, JMattis and John for your quick reply. I have a very experienced tech who did a complete setup; first when I switched to 10s (common sense told me this was a time for full setup :wink:), and recently when I had humidity related fretwork edges nicely filed (no more cut fingies). I had the trem adjusted to my preference. Stiffer than I would prefer, but it stays in tune remarkably well. When I changed the string brand, it resulted in a slight buzz on one string, the tree and nut were checked out lubed and corrected. This did the trick. Intonation and string height is fine.

The higher grub screws were a new addition in this last full setup. At my inspection, the neck appears fine, and is pretty much tight to the body as I would expect. All your points are taken to further my knowledge of what to expect or exclude with the rising screws. At least I now know it's a common issue. As you said, John, perhaps, the screws can be replaced first with shorter ones (or filed as a second choice). Now I can confidently bring it up with the tech. Maybe, the original grub screws rolled on to the floor :roll: :lol:

Thanks, again.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:16 pm
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There WAS a reason for the bridge covers with which the Strat's were originally supplied. Then there was a reason why they came to be known as 'ash trays'. Seems the 'bridge damping smokers' of those early years found a better use for them than protecting their nicotined-stained hands. When they arrived on the scene, I thought those new-fandangled flat press steel 'thingamajigs' out of sync with the look of a Stratocaster. But what the hell do I know. My first Strat was a '58...back in the day. First loves can wear thin with difficulty.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:15 pm
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ZZDoc wrote:
There WAS a reason for the bridge covers with which the Strat's were originally supplied. Then there was a reason why they came to be known as 'ash trays'. Seems the 'bridge damping smokers' of those early years found a better use for them than protecting their nicotined-stained hands. When they arrived on the scene, I thought those new-fandangled flat press steel 'thingamajigs' out of sync with the look of a Stratocaster. But what the hell do I know. My first Strat was a '58...back in the day. First loves can wear thin with difficulty.


That's a great point, Doc. '58 -nice! There seems to be some present use for that design, perhaps with a better mounting system IMHO. I would have it personally engraved, perhaps with scroll work or paisley or . . . I'm not about to debate possible tone difference except to say some great songs also included the tray. In my teens I remember playing a Daphne Blue '62 Strat (not mine sad to say) with the 'ash tray'. I liked the look, contrary to popular opinion. I smoked back then; but, I wouldn't have thought to use it for butts anymore than I would put my smokes out on my cymbals :lol:

Cheers.

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