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Post subject: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:40 am
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Another of our probing examinations into why things are the way they are. :-)

Bent steel saddles compared to forged blocks - What's the story?

I'll admit that I wasn't a great lover of the bent steel saddles. They look cheap and I found them uncomfortable on the heel of my hand when damping - I'll admit this was perhaps due to the grub screws being the wrong length.*

In comparison the block saddles are rather lovely, flat and smooth and (allegedly) give better sustain.

I know the originals had bent steel but then that was the technology of 60 years ago. And I applaud Fender for pushing the "Retro" plus point. I can also appreciate that forged blocks are much more expensive to produce than the bent steel ones. That said, changing the bent steel ones doesn't seem to be a particularly critical upgrade in the way you would think if the cast ones are genuinely better in some way.

But what is the difference? Is the only advantage in the block ones that they are nice and flat?

Is there a notable sonic advantage to one over the other? Is it just down to "That's the way they have always been"?

*As a rider to the above, I had intended swapping the bridge on my new hardtail to ditch the bent saddles but find they no longer annoy me as I thought they would and I would prefer to keep it original.

I'm pleased I swapped to an American Deluxe on my MIM mainly because the MIM trem was awful.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:42 am
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OK, you seem content to keep these topics flowing, so let's start the 20 pages on this yea, but-no, but:
Bent steel saddles for 1. sound 2. looks 3. tradition 4. mojo. It's apples-oranges, not better-worse.

John Sims wrote:
They look cheap

That's the beauty of bent saddles - using a little piece of steel plate to make something simply genious.

John Sims wrote:
due to the grub screws being the wrong length

If you have screws sticking up from modern saddles, you'll bleed, too...

John Sims wrote:
block saddles (...) (allegedly) give better sustain.

Here, as in every other resembling aspect, one should remember the time before modern saddles, and the music created and recorded then. Jimi and sustain promlems? :roll:


John Sims wrote:
because the MIM trem was awful

Usually, that should read, "because the MIM trem had an awful set up".


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:18 am
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I seriously doubt the block saddles are forged. Cast maybe.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:31 am
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I can almost picture little elves with their tiny hammers, pounding away to produce the block saddles. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 6:42 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I seriously doubt the block saddles are forged. Cast maybe.


I also believe they are cast; they aren't milled from a solid block or forged.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 8:26 am
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John C wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
I seriously doubt the block saddles are forged. Cast maybe.


I also believe they are cast; they aren't milled from a solid block or forged.


I took it that forged meant milled from a forged billet , as in "Forged cranks", " Forged con rods" I can't imagine Porsche visit their local blacksmith for components for their GT3s.

Any road up, I had assumed forged (milled from the solid billet) for all the goodness that the process includes - even if it is more expensive.

Cast is a bit naff and can introduce problems through poor casting - still not as cheap as stamping out from a bit of tin though.

I can't remember if the underside is hollow, which would be a give away. I don't think it is.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:27 am
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jmattis wrote:


John Sims wrote:
because the MIM trem was awful

Usually, that should read, "because the MIM trem had an awful set up".


I don't doubt it. Comparing the MIM with the MIA Deluxe I replaced it with (aside the complete lack of weight in the trem block) there were little or no obvious dimensional differences which would impact on function. - I did put 5 springs on the MIA just for good measure though....and am considering blocking it as well.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:17 am
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John Sims wrote:
John C wrote:
BMW-KTM wrote:
I seriously doubt the block saddles are forged. Cast maybe.


I also believe they are cast; they aren't milled from a solid block or forged.


I took it that forged meant milled from a forged billet , as in "Forged cranks", " Forged con rods" I can't imagine Porsche visit their local blacksmith for components for their GT3s.

Any road up, I had assumed forged (milled from the solid billet) for all the goodness that the process includes - even if it is more expensive.

Cast is a bit naff and can introduce problems through poor casting - still not as cheap as stamping out from a bit of tin though.

I can't remember if the underside is hollow, which would be a give away. I don't think it is.


I suppose that was splitting hairs to call it milled instead of forged - you would take the forged metal and mill it down.

However, I think that these aren't really cast, either - I believe they were formed from steel powder (powder metallurgy) compressed into the mold instead of from liquefied metal. I believe I read that somewhere years ago; of course now when you do searches you only turn up info on the current saddles or ads for replacement saddles.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:22 pm
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John C wrote:
... I believe they were formed from steel powder (powder metallurgy) compressed into the mold instead of from liquefied metal. I believe I read that somewhere years ago; of course now when you do searches you only turn up info on the current saddles or ads for replacement saddles.


Now you mention it I seem to have some vague recollection to that effect in the dark and cobwebbed recesses of my mind. That would certainly tie up with the general shape of them.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:48 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I seriously doubt the block saddles are forged. Cast maybe.



They are not forged. They are a powered metal placed under a great deal of preasure.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:59 am
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Forged cranks are hammered roughly into shape by a machine before being sent to the machinist for turning. Old fashioned blacksmiths are not employed to do the forging.

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:20 am
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paris wrote:


They are not forged. They are a powered metal placed under a great deal of preasure.


Indeed. You would think such construction would make then pretty dead harmonicly - I must give one a tap next time I have one free.

If this be the case there may indeed be an acoustic advantage to the bent steel saddles - (aside their obvious additional mojo :wink: )

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:28 pm
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John Sims wrote:
If this be the case there may indeed be an acoustic advantage to the bent steel saddles - (aside their obvious additional mojo :wink: )


The old Croatian coot *seems* to have known something after all......

:lol:

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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:00 pm
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John Sims wrote:
paris wrote:


They are not forged. They are a powered metal placed under a great deal of preasure.


Indeed. You would think such construction would make then pretty dead harmonicly - I must give one a tap next time I have one free.

If this be the case there may indeed be an acoustic advantage to the bent steel saddles - (aside their obvious additional mojo :wink: )


According to The Stratocaster Chronicles, Tom Wheeler (pg 201), Dan Smith says that the American Std. (1987-1999) used something called, "Powdered Stainless." It's not a liquid, but powdered metal forced into a mold and formed under high preassure. Apparently, the material removed some of the harshness out out of the Strat. These were still used for the American Series (2000-2007), and looking at the American Dlx Strat, still used on at least one model.

From my own experience, I owned an '87 Strat plus and a 50th Anniversary American Series Strat, both of which came with the block styles saddles, and I hadn't noticed any sustain issues. In fact, both of these guitars were great playing and sounding guitars.

I'm also playing a '75 Stat with the old '70s era saddles and one-piece bridge, and again, I haven't had any sustain or tonal issues.

My latest purchase, a 2015 Deluxe Strat Plus came with bent saddles.

I hope all of this helps.


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Post subject: Re: Bent steel saddles. Why?
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:02 am
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As informative as ever Paris. Many thanks.

Interesting to hear there were intentional accoustic theories behind the block saddles.

I had a real hate for the bent steel saddles but won't be changing them again.

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